is charismatic leader worth it?

[ShakaKhan]

As I've mentioned in other threads, I'm a big believer in befriending city-states for the bonuses they provide. Many claim that they aren't worth the investment because at higher levels the AI just wipes them out, but if you can have your cities envelope a city-state it won't be conquered, and if you can border a city-state you can always liberate it. Not just the Suzerein bonuses, many of which are really good, but also simply the 3/6 envoy level bonuses can have a profound impact on your civilization-wide yields.

That being said, I usually have one card slot permanently reserved for charismatic leader (and later gunboat diplomacy) to try to get the maximum number of envoys in a game. However, after reflecting over my last couple of games, I don't recall the "envoy clock" hitting full circle that many times in a game, even when permanently securing the bonus from charismatic leader (and gunboat,) I think the majority of the envoys that I got were from city-state quests, I prioritized them, especially with CS's that had bonuses that I really wanted, and I was usually able to get an extra envoy with at least a third of the CS's, usually more like half of them, every era. There are also numerous civics that give bonus envoys which accounted for the second-highest source of envoys I received (side note: I also found it very effective to skip some of these civics, which later in the game gave me the option of completing them in a single turn for an instant envoy to re-suzerein a city-state.) Those two sources of envoys, quests and civics, seemed to account for the vast majority of envoys that I received, and the envoy-clock would still be ticking if I wasn't running charismatic leader, just a little slower.

So back to the question: is the charismatic leader card worth it? Many other posters here seem to hold it in high regard, and since I value envoys highly it seems to have a high value in theory, but in actual practice I have considerable doubts about it's impact.

 

[Abraxis]

I use it if I find a city state whose bonus I want to guarantee keeping. That's about it though. If I have it installed I know I'll be developing more or at least equal envoys to others and can at least lock-down one suzerainship. Later in the game I use the gold per envoy because I love gold, early in the game I'll sometimes use the 1 extra envoy for first envoy.

Right now my biggest complaint is not being able to properly defend City States. I often go to ancient wars whenever I see one being attacked to try and protect them. Not only do I get nothing out of it from the city state, I have to protect them without even being able to attack enemies in their borders. I've even declared war on them before just to get in there and clear out their attackers while taking fire from them as well. It's kind of bullfeathers and I'm thinking they will probably make some pretty significant changes to the system with the first expansion.

 

[Yzman]

Is this the one that gives you bonus influence ? Honestly I always use it when there is really nothing better. I find the diplomatic policies to be the worst, so I often have that as the best option because there is nothing else that will help me. By the time I get diplo policies, I have usually discovered majority of the city states, so the other policy for double for newly met CS is utterly useless, leaving only this one for a long while.

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

It's not double for newly met CS, it's double for the first envoy presented there -- so, placing your first envoy with a CS where you have 0 gives you two.

Of course, you want to do this before completing a quest for that first envoy.

 

[Yzman]

It's not double for newly met CS, it's double for the first envoy presented there -- so, placing your first envoy with a CS where you have 0 gives you two.

Of course, you want to do this before completing a quest for that first envoy.

Wait, maybe I have been reading this card wrong then. I always assumed it meant that when I first meet a CS, I get 2 envoys instead of 1. That seems very lacking to me. You are saying it doubles something else?

Can someone explain how to use this card?

 

[empresskiova]

Good question! Let's find out, using Standard Speed.

First we should look at the 3 tiers of government. T1 gov's generate 3 Envoy points a turn, and require 100 points for a 1 whole envoy. T2 gov's generate 5 Envoy points a turn, and require 150 Envoy points for 2 whole Envoys. T3 gov's generate 7 Envoy points a turn and require 200 Envoy Points for 3 whole Envoys. We can finnagle with Monarchy later.

As a Tier 1 Government: W/O Charismatic Leader, you will need 34 turns to generate an entire Envoy. Afterwards, it'll take 33 more turns for the next two envoys. So, 100 turns as a T1 Gov will generate 3 Envoys. Charismatic Leader will bump this to 1 Envoy every 20 turns (provided you don't jump to a Tier 2 Gov). Depending on how fast you are generating Culture, you can probably expect to get 2 Envoys and 50 points (over 50 turns) with Charismatic Leader before jumping to T2. Not using Charismatic Leader will only get you 1 Envoy and then 50 points (over the same 50 turns) before T2.

For Tier 1 Governments, this is a great card. Autocracies be damned however, as they would need to use their Wildcard Slot on it. Don't be afraid to slot Diplomatic League in at times however!

As a Tier 2 Goverment: W/O Charismatic Leader, you need 30 turns for 2 Envoys. Charismatic Leader bumps this to 2 Envoys for 22 turns, and then 2 Envoys over 21 turns, and then back to taking 22 turns for an Envoy. So, over 60 turns you can generate 4 Envoys without the policy card. With it, you'll get the same 4 envoys along with 120 more points.

For Tier 2 Goverments, this card is still useful, but it's usefulness does noticeably slow down. If you feel as though you have enough Envoys, you may find yourself dropping it. If you still want to keep the Envoy game going though, this card still has some life in it.

As a Tier 3 Goverment: W/O Gunboat Diplomacy (I'm not going over Charismatic Leader here lol), you will need 29 turns for the first 3 Envoys... and the next 3 Envoys. After that, the time goes to 28 turns. Gunboat Diplomacy makes changes these numbers to 19 turns for every 3 envoys (for a while, I imagine lol). Over 60 turns you will generate 6 Envoys and 20 points. Gunboat Diplomacy will bring that to 9 Envoys and 60 points.

For Tier 3 Governments, Gunboat Diplomacy will make a difference in the Envoy game. I'd say it's worth a slot if you've been playing the Envoy Game at all, if only because you can use it to further lock your own Suzerainty. Being able to move through all City-States is also helpful.

Monarchy: Monarchy is a powerful Government for generating Envoys. With a base 20% boost to Envoy Points, including your Policy Cards, these numbers start to exaggerate. 60 turns as Monarchy + Charismatic Leader generates 6 Envoys plus 64 points (this math is not including Legacy Boosts). 2 More Envoys than either of the other two T2 gov's in that timespan. Without Charismatic Leader, you will get 4 Envoys plus 60 points in 60 turns. About as many Envoys than another T2 + Charismatic Leader, and then you can still adopt a Spy policy or whatever. **In the event that Monarchy doesn't boost Policies, this math will be updated later**

Monarchy + Gunboat Diplomacy? For fun, why not try the "strongest" Envoy Gov with the Gunboats... 60 turns will generate 8 Envoys and 48 points. It's very very close to generating as many Envoys as a T3 + Gunboat, so it's not quite worth it for the Envoy game. The Legacy bonus might bring you over the edge, but to be fair, the extra 2 slots in any T3 gov's are probably more valuable.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

It's not so great it just has no competition for a long time. You stock up a few envoys, swap it out for for the first envoy counts as two policy, send all those envoys to city states you don't have any with yet, then switch back.

Wait, maybe I have been reading this card wrong then. I always assumed it meant that when I first meet a CS, I get 2 envoys instead of 1. That seems very lacking to me. You are saying it doubles something else?

Can someone explain how to use this card?

You get a free envoy if you are the first to meet a cs. The card gives you an additional envoy when you send your first envoy regardless of whether you send it manually, by completing a quest or being the first to meet them.

 

[cazaderonus]

Who exactly said CSs arent worth the investment at higher level ? o_O .. Because that's just pure non sense.

First, you do not need to invest anything to get suzerainship over CSes. It grows over time and their quest arent that difficult to get.

Second, they are often a perfect way to go warmonger for a while and then buy back some diplomatic points with the AIs by liberating a CS or two before ending the war. It's suzerainship plus a good diplomatic move, for free. I'm always hoping to see a close neighbor go mad on nearby CSes just for that reason. On my deity game with France, i even got to wipe out Gorgo (she wouldnt peace out) after a 100+ turn war and still ended the game with 4 alliances because i liberated a CS she had taken every 2/3 cities i took from her.

And some suzerainshiip bonuses are just too good.

So yeah.. BAck to OP's question. Charismatic leader is worth it, especially early game where you dont get that much envoy points per turn. Once you get to maritime republic, monarchy, etc, it's a lot less necessary, and i tend to use the +1GPT per envoy card for a while. Gunboat diplomacy, never used it. That late in the game i have all the envoys i need and governments already give enough envoy points per turn.

Anyway, unlike CiV, you dont need the CS to get a specific victory (Diplomatic), you just need to get the CS that will benefit your intended victory. And even then they're just icing on the cake and not mandatory even on deity. So the way i play the CS game is as follow.

I usually target one CS early. The one with the best suzerainship bonus for the situation, and i'll basically send all my envoys to that CS. Trying to grab quests for the others. Then, i just dont spend my envoys until :
1) i need to spend one to maintain suzerainship of my 1st CS because an AI tries to take it
2) when i have enough envoys to grab a significant boost from another CS (lvl3 at least) while still having 1 envoy left to secure my 1st CS in case something goes wrong.

Policies are the best way to manage CS progression. Taking advantage of the free envoys allows to do basically whatever you want. AIs suck at using envoys properly. i think i always finished my deity games with 5 to 7 suzerainship.

 

[TurboJ]

I tend to hoard my envoys for a while until I find a useful CS. Then I activate the policy that gives two envoys for one and use like three envoys at once - and after that I switch to 'charismatic leader'. I tend to switch between these two policies in the early game depending on how my exploration is going. It's usually not smart to have 'charismatic leader' going on for centuries if one city state is all you can find. Or, you just save up those envoys and switch to that other policy once you've met more CSs.

 

[agonistes]

I use it if I find a city state whose bonus I want to guarantee keeping. That's about it though. If I have it installed I know I'll be developing more or at least equal envoys to others and can at least lock-down one suzerainship. Later in the game I use the gold per envoy because I love gold, early in the game I'll sometimes use the 1 extra envoy for first envoy.

Right now my biggest complaint is not being able to properly defend City States. I often go to ancient wars whenever I see one being attacked to try and protect them. Not only do I get nothing out of it from the city state, I have to protect them without even being able to attack enemies in their borders. I've even declared war on them before just to get in there and clear out their attackers while taking fire from them as well. It's kind of bull**** and I'm thinking they will probably make some pretty significant changes to the system with the first expansion.

If its a cs I really want suzy of, I make significant efforts to defend them... will even build up a 10 ship navy or an artillery reinforced army to squat guard.

If I don't care about suzy, and its likely to be conquered, I usually won't even bother with envoys.

From my experience, if the neighboring civs are sending envoys, its a good bet they won't dow.

+ envoy points cards are my go-to. I only switch out if I can get a high number of hits from the 2-fer, or I'm at zero with a precious cs I have an achievable quest for.

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

Even having one or 2 extra envoys can be handy. I like to keep 2 in reserve, in case the AI tries to snag one in my territory.
Which they like to do prior to DoW. (or in the middle of a war)