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Is continets map just luck based stupididty?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by vendur, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. stii

    stii Prince

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    The games I play tell me that if war if better than peace you should use war to win. So no I don't agree it is common sense.
     
  2. stii

    stii Prince

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    As opposed to the people saying your deity win doesn't count because you did these things that I think are unfair?
     
  3. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    stii:

    It's not a challenge. It's a suggestion. vendur is asking for a way to enjoy Civ V better. I suggested that he scale back the difficulty and not win everything the way he does now. He's free to take this up or not.

    One city in Civ IV isn't a normal game, but I didn't say it was. I said that it was possible to keep up with Deity AI economically with one city, not that it was normal. It was perfectly feasible to keep up at any size empire you chose.

    In Civ IV, manipulating AI behavior through the diplomacy game was part of the game. Playing it well required knowledge and skill, even though humans would not have behaved similarly. That said, nothing in the intrinsic economic engine of a one-city powerhouse was dependent on tactics that were external to that strategy. Humans would not have been able to do anything about it.

    War is only better if you can do it. In this case, vendur is having difficulty using war to win because his enemies are on another continent and he has to tech to Astronomy and decent war tech to even stand a chance. His normal manner of waging war to win isn't helping him.

    Since you seem to be good at using war to make up for peacetime weakness, perhaps you can provide suggestions for him?
     
  4. stii

    stii Prince

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    I am now interested if you have a link to someone winning a deity OCC.
     
  5. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    In Civ IV? Those are common, right? Just head on over to the Civ IV threads. I believe obsolete has a series of games showing how the economy is done.
     
  6. Guardian_PL

    Guardian_PL Emperor

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    @Surgeon
    If you think I'm implying anything or making fun of others cause I think I'm better than them, think again ok? I haven't claimed anything, now read on if you can't understand my elitist blah blah rambling or not I don't really care:

    @Roxlimn
    Proper term is not called a handicap. It's called broken mechanic, and we've been fed a lot of crap in the past how allegedly the supadupa AI now can think like a human and it plays like a human due to employing several sublayers of AI responsible for tactic, strategy, economy blah blah (so I can use that absolutely nonelitist word technique presented by Surgeon just now). What we received is so much worse than whatever we could imagine that we got BoD (Blanket of Doom) in order to "fix" the AI and give us a challenge.

    Now, did any of you guys I'm writing to has bothered read the OP? He's talking about Immortal/Deity and how stupid it can be to race after another continent AI that's been huge for thousands of years. And the illustrious answers here were "Play Pangea", "Play small map using exploits", then "Play anyway cause AI is broken and won't stop you from winning since it's unable to attack from overseas or use its money to subjugate CityStates to its will" and finally Roxlimn brilliant response to the OP "Play on King, if you're struggling then you're a loser" - and that was too much for me.

    Because nothing here actually helps the OP, it only states how terribly broken this game is and yet it still has horde of defenders blind to that fact. If you Surgeon would actually bother to read my "blah blah" then by clicking on a link you could notice Blanket Of Doom I'm talking about and perhaps that would help you realise that Civ5 is far from being finished.
     
  7. Gaizokubanou

    Gaizokubanou Warlord

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    It doesn't help that many posts specify that they are having trouble at deity, then bunch of people come up with cute ideas that "worked in prince/king hur hur".

    To OP, I think continents have a lot more luck factor than say, pangea for sure. Sometimes you might get locked in a smaller continent on your own, which will be like a death sentence.
     
  8. aimlessgun

    aimlessgun King

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    Step1: Build a navy
    Step 2: Bombard their units for 50 turns, 100 turns, whatever, as long as it takes to kill all of them.
    Step3: Invade and win.

    The computer is so incompetent at victory conditions you should have time to do this. The computer is so incompetent at sea battles that you should have the ability to do this.
     
  9. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    Guardian_PL:

    At no point did I call vendur a loser. That is your interpretation. The only way I can imagine that can be so is that you think everyone not playing Emperor or better is a "loser," which probably explains why you have such a heavy bias against what I just said.

    The proper term for giving the AI bonuses is AI handicap. This term is used throughout many, many, many games. I can't imagine how you can't know this, so you must be intentionally saying something wrong to emphasize a point. Regardless, the correct term is handicap and we should use correct terms to avoid misunderstandings and useless rhetorical arguments.

    All AIs in strategic games tend to be poor. The best AI I've seen so far is the one in Galatic Civilizations 2, which can compete up to Hard level without any handicaps. GC2 is a simple game, though.

    The coders and promoters of the game will always put the best face on what they're presenting. I can't imagine how can you can't know this and how you can be offended by what is normal human behavior. I didn't expect the AI in Civ V to be better than it was in Civ IV, and it's not. It's not much worse, though. At least its economic management seems to be more or less okay.

    I think that my response is helpful. On King, you don't get blankets of doom, and you can keep up with the AI economically easily, in any situation whatsoever. If the OP wanted a challenge, then he could put additional economic handicaps on himself based on the start location.

    I don't believe that his core problem is that he wants to experience blankets of doom. Does anyone? Do you?

    Gaizokubanou:

    You're essentially saying that if you get landlocked in a small continent, reload because you're dead. That doesn't seem to be helpful, either. I suggested that vendur start off with King because I have been able to win landlocked, small continent, no Maritime, few river starts, no AI on same continent on that difficulty level. Before you start knocking that, I suggest that you try it as well. It's not as impossible as it sounds.

    Now that I've done it, I feel confident that with some tweaking, I can win on the same start on Emperor. Eventually, I hope to be able to win such a start on Immortal. Once I'm on Deity, I can have something very concrete to offer, but until then, I can suggest that the OP start working on the problem at a level he can manage.
     
  10. stii

    stii Prince

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    This reads as you suck too much to play at these levels you should move down to king until you can win using only methods I deem fair.
     
  11. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    stii:

    Not at all. vendur himself can't win all Continent starts. This indicates a hole in his skill repertoire. If you can provide tips on how to win these starts on Continents, then by all means, please share.

    I myself play at King, so I certainly don't think that only sucky players play at King level. Everyone plays the game at the pace they are most comfortable with.

    If vendur can't win the problematic start at Deity, doesn't it make sense that he decrease the diff level until he can win?
     
  12. Guardian_PL

    Guardian_PL Emperor

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    Thank you stii for help :)
    :confused: How can that be helpful when the OP is asking for the advice on Immortal+?

    Exactly! :goodjob: That's why he's asking others in a nutshell "wtf is with those lame handicaps (to use your preferred phrase) that are putting Blankets of Doom on the other continent, don't you think there's something broken with the game mechanic or is it just me?"
     
  13. biohazard72

    biohazard72 Prince

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    Not sure if it's start luck, but I've won every game I've played (Prince through Immortal) on continents. And I always have my continent taken before the AI on the other continent. At that point I can find an advantage to press over the top AI to win the game (usually a small tech advantage leading to superior units).

    Perhaps the problem is speed? If you're not constantly at war or preparing for a war, you're doing it wrong (exceptions: small period at start of game for settling, time between naval exploration and end of last war on your continent, etc.).
     
  14. Surgeon

    Surgeon Warlord

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    @ guardian

    Did you even read your own post? (you claim I didnt) There is no other way of understanding it other than making fun of the guy because he played at a lower level.
     
  15. Gaizokubanou

    Gaizokubanou Warlord

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    On Deity, yeah.

    Stop bringing in your king difficulty examples cause I'm not having trouble pulling that off even in emperor.

    Go see the freaking blanket of doom link before talking like deity on continents where AI gets to have an entire continent for itself is fine...

    Actually there is. He was annoyed at someone who didn't even try deity telling deity level players that game must be fine and deity has to be playable.
     
  16. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    Guardian_PL:

    I'm pretty sure he was asking about winning or losing, not about handicaps.

    So far, no one has presented the OP with any aid on how to decrease the luck factor of continents. The best one so far is bombarding units with naval vessels for hundreds of turns. Yeah. I don't find that fun.

    Playing on King means that you can win any start, and that you don't have to deal with blankets of doom.

    Now, bear with me for a moment. Let's not be elitist for a while and assume that playing on King is something that people with more than 80 IQ do. Outrageous, I know, but I believe in tolerance and in not calling people names.

    What exactly is wrong with playing on King, if you want to win using alternative methods?


    Gaizokubanou:

    Excellent! You have something helpful after all. How do you win isolated starts "without any trouble whatsoever" on Emperor? Perhaps we can glean something that will be useful on Deity.
     
  17. Gaizokubanou

    Gaizokubanou Warlord

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    Nothing is wrong with playing on king, but you shouldn't tell people that the game is just fine on deity.

    Nothing of use for deity cause of how ridiculous the AI cheating becomes at that level.
     
  18. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    Gaizokubanou:

    If you can find a post here or anywhere that has me telling people that the game is just fine on Deity, please quote.

    Oh, pish-posh. If you're not having any trouble on Emperor, then surely it can be applied at Immortal at least? You haven't even told us how you do it. Perhaps the OP can make use of it anyway.
     
  19. Guardian_PL

    Guardian_PL Emperor

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    To you perhaps. I however when called out by Roxlimn (to whom I was directing my post at the first place) tried to explain that to me offering advice how to play on King when someone is asking for help on Immortal/Deity is well, ridiculous. It's like suggesting in Civ4 to do a Civil Service Oracle slingshot on Deity because it works so well on King.

    It didn't implied anything that would suggest that I'm l33t and he's a n00b (or whatever the lingo is). It was though so offtopic to me that I just had to point that out. Once more, the OP is about Immortal+ Posting on Strategy and Tips forum "oh if you have problems then play few levels lower" is not helpful at all.
     
  20. Roxlimn

    Roxlimn Deity

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    Guardian_PL:

    To my knowledge, I didn't give ANY advice whatsoever on how to play on King on this thread.
     

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