is fake id ok?

[Pillager]

Originally posted by Loaf Warden


These are two separate questions. The first is basically, "Is it acceptable to break the law?" The second is, "Is the law itself wrong?"

I think the drinking age of 21 is ridiculous. I would vote to decrease it if the issue ever came up on a ballot, and if I were made Dictator-For-Life of America I would decrease it myself. There's no rational reason to have it so high, and it should definitely be lower.

However. That one does not agree with the law does not make it acceptable to break that law. Laws exist to provide order in society, and if we go around breaking laws just because we think they're dumb, then we feed disorder and add to the degradation of society. Even if you disagree with the spirit of the law, it is vital to follow it to the letter. Therefore, my answer to the poll is, "No, fake IDs are not okay. They are, by definition, illegal, and that makes them not okay."

Agreed. That just about sums it up.

 

[Finvola]

I never had a fake ID and I don't think any of my friends did. However, I did drink in bars underage. I used to take Irish dance lessons at an Irish club when I was a teenager and the bartender used to serve me. I was about 17 or so, the bartenders knew, but didn't care. Then as I got older, some of my friends or dance buddies weren't legal yet so I would bring them there because I knew they'd get served. But it never did any harm.....it wasn't like we were getting stupid drunk and driving all over the place.

Nowawadays, I don't think I would buy cigs or drink for anyone underage though.

 

[IceBlaZe]

No, If you want to change the Age of drinking, do it Democratically.

If you say that taking the law to your hands for something you personally think is wrong is okay, there is no limit for that.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
No, If you want to change the Age of drinking, do it Democratically.

If you say that taking the law to your hands for something you personally think is wrong is okay, there is no limit for that.

Exactly!

This way you break the law and leave it there for the next generations, although you and obviously many others disagree with it.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Obey the law. If ye want to use a fake ID, it just makes the task of booting ye out all the nicer for bouncers such as myself.

 

[Rodgers]

I agree with the line "you may not agree with the law but you should still obey it" expressed by several people above. However, I'd feel an absolute arse saying that to somone who was obviously buying alcohol on a fake ID

 

[gr8ful wes]

If you are comfortable with lying and breaking the law then it is OK.

 

[AVN]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
No, If you want to change the Age of drinking, do it Democratically.

The problem is that the people involved (teenagers), in general don't have the right to vote, or they have limited possibilities to change the law.
So can I understand it if they use a fake id. Yes.

BTW. The minimum age in The Netherlands is 16, but 14 or 15 year olds will have no practical problem in buying alcohol. In general I have no problem with that.

 

[Padma]

To piggyback onto my earlier post, let me say that I think 21 is an absolutely ridiculous minimum driking age. Almost every other situation I can think of uses 18 as the age of adulthood. I would hae no problem with the drinking age also being 18.

As far as voting to change it, I believe the size of the 18 - 21 age group is significant . But, then again, the younger voters seem to be ever more apathetic about voting, so it probably won't get changed anytime soon.

As far as my comment about integrity, I think integrity is very important. And it does have a great deal to do with the question. One does not break laws just because they are inconvenient. That way leads to chaos. At what point do you stop breaking laws? If you think a law is unfair, unjust, immoral, whatever, you work to change it. But if you have integrity, you will obey the law while you work to change it.

 

[nixon]

Certainly not. People ought to be shot for such disgraceful and risible deeds. If this animal lust for alcohol dominates their lives, deport them to an arctic camp in the South Pole and fill them with vodka.

 

[CornMaster]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
I'd say if you need alcohol that badly, check yourself into the clinic.

Oh my god....

My opinion excatly.

It's amazing some times.......

 

[IceBlaZe]

The problem is that the people involved (teenagers), in general don't have the right to vote, or they have limited possibilities to change the law.
So can I understand it if they use a fake id. Yes.

BTW. The minimum age in The Netherlands is 16, but 14 or 15 year olds will have no practical problem in buying alcohol. In general I have no problem with that.

Get a lobby from your parents

 

[Jimcat]

Originally posted by Loaf Warden
However. That one does not agree with the law does not make it acceptable to break that law. Laws exist to provide order in society, and if we go around breaking laws just because we think they're dumb, then we feed disorder and add to the degradation of society. Even if you disagree with the spirit of the law, it is vital to follow it to the letter.

I have to disagree with this, because my personal view is that order for its own sake doesn't trump the ultimate question of wrong or right. If the law is wrong, then disobeying it promotes what is right. Naturally, you have to be willing to accept the consequences of disobeying, which may be serious. But as Henry David Thoreau once said, "When the law itself is unjust, the proper place for a just man is in jail." The purpose of laws is to serve people, not vice versa. Knuckling under and accepting restrictions on your freedom just for the sake of "keeping order" shows a lack of moral conviction and courage. Or, to quote another great American, those who would give up liberty to gain security deserve neither.

That being said, what is it in the United States that people don't trust those under 21 to drink responsibly? I know of nothing special that happens to your body or your mind at that age that makes you more capable of handling alcohol. The best way to learn the do's and don'ts of drinking is through a combination of example and experience. If your parents (and the rest of society) shut you off from all alcohol for the first 21 years of your life while continuing to enjoy it themselves, that hypocrisy makes a very poor example. And if that happens, then your first experience is likely to be illicit (leading you to view drinking as something shameful, to be done on the sly) and excessive (getting you into the habit of drinking far more than is good for you).

I guess that's why adults are so afraid of young people drinking: they're afraid that the youngsters will make all the mistakes that their elders made in their youth. And by being so restrictive, they assure the very thing that they were trying to prevent.

 

[Gastric ReFlux]

I have to disagree with this, because my personal view is that order for its own sake doesn't trump the ultimate question of wrong or right. If the law is wrong, then disobeying it promotes what is right. Naturally, you have to be willing to accept the consequences of disobeying, which may be serious. But as Henry David Thoreau once said, "When the law itself is unjust, the proper place for a just man is in jail." The purpose of laws is to serve people, not vice versa. Knuckling under and accepting restrictions on your freedom just for the sake of "keeping order" shows a lack of moral conviction and courage. Or, to quote another great American, those who would give up liberty to gain security deserve neither.

Bout time somebody said this.

 

[Padma]

Actually, Jimcat, despite how my earlier posts might be interpreted, I agree with you in principle. I have no problem with true "civil disobedience". In this case, however, while the drinking age law may be less than ideal, or even downright stupid, I don't believe that it qualifies as an "unjust" law. Those who are breaking the law and using fake IDs to do so aren't doing it to make a point, that is, to go to jail to show their feelings about this so-called "unjust law". They are doing it for purely selfish motives: they want to drink,and (usually) to get drunk. They may wrap themselves in lofty ideals if they think it will help them, but all they really are is kids looking to get a buzz.

Integrity still fits in, too. When one knows right from wrong, a person of integrity will disobey the "unjust law". However, he will still obey the "just" laws, even when no-one is watching him.

 

[Panda]

Not worth the trouble and the hassle when you get caught.

Don't you have older siblings or friends to get you alcohol?

And if one doesn't look pretty or mature enough to fool the bouncer, he or she can well stay out of my regular places

 

[Ozz]

Brew yer own, you can
buy the ingredients, or
at this time of year just
pick'em. (Wine or Beer)

No ID hassles, no
middleman problems,
Fun and educational
too (Biochemisty).

Or, buy an empty rum
barrel and shwish it with
water. Good for a gallon
or so of rum at the price
of a 26er.

 

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Finvola
I never had a fake ID and I don't think any of my friends did.

so you are the boring ones.

btw, your location says scotland, so you shouldn't even need a fake id.

 

[Loaf Warden]

Originally posted by Hamlet
Is there actually any other activity that you need to be 21 to do? How old do you have to be to smoke?

18 in most states. 19 in three of them, including mine (Alaska) and--I think Alabama and Utah. I may be wrong about the last two.

The age for voting and entering military service is 18 nationwide. Aside from more important things like running for president and getting social security, the only new freedom I can think of that comes after 21 is that you can rent a car at 25 (though you can drive a car at 16 and own a car at any age).

 

[Loaf Warden]

Originally posted by Jimcat

Knuckling under and accepting restrictions on your freedom just for the sake of "keeping order" shows a lack of moral conviction and courage.

Not necessarily. One can obey a law in the name of order while working to get the law abolished in the name of justice. I disagree with the 21 drinking age and feel it should be reduced, but that doesn't mean I would condone a teenager who got a fake ID in order to drink.

I'm not saying I would turn them in, either. I can't claim to have lived a blameless life, and I am not without sin enough to cast the first stone. But just because I don't go out and seek to prevent certain crimes doesn't mean I condone the committing of them.

And there is a very real difference between civil disobedience and simply ignoring laws that inconvenience you. As Padma has said, the teenager who gets a fake ID and goes into a bar or a liquor store is not committing civil disobedience for the sake of bringing down an unjust law. He or she is simply wanting to get drunk without waiting until age 21. I don't think this is a case of refusing to give up liberty for the sake of security; it's a case of wanting to get drunk. I don't consider that a noble or just cause, and the people who do it are, by and large, not making any kind of political statement. They're just impatient, and it would be inconvenient for them to obey the law, so they ignore it. If someone is making a statement to bring down an unjust law, that's certainly one thing. But if it's just a matter of convenience, then, to reference Padma again, where does it end?