Is Gaul OP?

[Kupe Navigator]

no seriously in Korean Civ fandom there are large discussion on how Gaul is most OP civ they have produced and some even angrily accused civ team of destroying any sense of balance in the game.
Here is their case translated and summarised from Korean

"1. Mines triggering cultural bomb is too much since it gives them edge in land grabbing and can cause other civs to feel deprived. This is even more true since mining is one of first tech to be unlocked and Gauls can grab whatever lands they want from get go. Also the mines have +1 culture so this can easily snowball. Since in civ 6 culture is much more important than science this can give Gauls too much edge in the game

2. the unite unit Gaestae is OP as well since it can cover swordsman easily and makesearily unique unit civs like Aztec and Sumer look weak and pathetic

3. Opidum is OP as well. Hansa is what made Germany OP in early days of civ 6. Opidum is better since it unlocked earily and receives way too much boast

4. LA is OP as well since as soon as you create military unite you gain culture. As soon as you produce a single scoute you gain a culture. "

I DO NOT agree with any of these points but Korean fans seems to be hating on things that makes game too powerful and hates powerful mods and civs.

I don't get them

 

[sethjohnson]

no ones played as Gaul yet! Also not being able to build districts adjacent to city centres seems quite a penalty for city planning

 

[Kupe Navigator]

no ones played as Gaul yet! Also not being able to build districts adjacent to city centres seems quite a penalty for city planning

They said that this is not much of a penalty since you can build mines everywhere compared to districts in which you can build in limited areas.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Eh. The land grab thing isn't that big of a deal. Australia gets the same thing from Pastures, which are also early. No one thinks that's the OP part of Australia. Russia gets a no-effort culture bomb whenever it founds a city. And Gaul can't steal tiles from others. It's restricted. Plus, the "no specialty districts adjacent to the city center" restriction offsets this a lot.

The Gaestedae only approaches Swordsman strength in ideal situations, not typical situations.

Production is less of a boss hog since they improved usage of Faith and Gold economies. So I don't see an early IZ as being that big of a deal.

The Culture from building units is only 20% of the Production cost. It's a pittance.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Australia gets the same thing from Pastures, which are also early.

but compared to hills pastures aren't that common.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

but compared to hills pastures aren't that common.

But the other points about Russia and the countervailing restrictions still stand.

 

[Futumch]

You don't think this sort of question is premature? As far as the general public goes, no-one's played them yet. It's like saying a car handles badly before you get in and give it a drive yourself.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

You don't think this sort of question is premature? As far as the general public goes, no-one's played them yet. It's like saying a car handles badly before you get in and give it a drive yourself.

yeah but now Korean fandom is in an uproar about it... they even reached the level of "ruined forever!"

 

[Revanchist]

Gaul hasn’t even been released yet.

1. You can’t steal tiles with the culture bomb and they are necessary to expand your borders and get over the tile restrictions. Additionally, the extra culture really isn’t that much. Other civs can stack culture to ridiculous degrees with relics and bonus yields. If they got extra food I would actually be worried

2. Gaesatae are strong but expensive. They will definitely be one of the better units, but to declare them overpowered without playing them is ridiculous

3. The oppidum is definitively better than the Hansa with certain exceptions. It really depends on how good the strategic spawn rates are, but I am going to have fun playing with them. At a certain point after early game, however, production is not as strong unless you are pursuing a science victory.

4. The leader ability is strong because of the adjacency bonus, not the culture. Again, the Gaul will have a strong early start, but this will begin to fade away as the game progresses with the military bonus losing power via inflation.

Allow me to point out weaknesses:

1. The Gaul most likely start near hills/strategic resources like iron, meaning a lack of food and therefore a lower population which will make building more districts harder, countering their ability

2. It takes 6 mines to get a major speciality district boost. That means with the limited space you have, districts may be competing for space amongst each other

3. The gaul are horrendous with water maps, somehow even more so than the maya since they won’t get the normal boosts from commercial or harbor districts.

4. Since they spawn near strategic resources, district placement may be gimped as you cannot remove them

5. As I mentioned earlier, it will be hard to expand to areas with limited space. If you want to settle a frontier on the edge of your empire, be wary that you can’t steal tiles and have to work with what you have

 

[CoconutTank]

Out of curiosity, any link available for us to see for ourselves?

 

[8housesofelixir]

You don't think this sort of question is premature? As far as the general public goes, no-one's played them yet. It's like saying a car handles badly before you get in and give it a drive yourself.

There is also another thread named "Is Byzantium OP?" which opened up one week ago and Byzantium hasn’t even been released, not to say another thread about "do you like Dramatic Age or not" which also hasn't even been released yet. I don't know, maybe this is a trend across the different civ communities.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

I think this is a negative Civ, or at least don't have much strength.

Meiji Restoration is a pretty good UA, and Gaul is just counter Meiji. We don't have a lot of hills, actually, we usually end up with more districts than hills. At least in my games.

Not being able to build districts on the 1st ring is quite a malus. This means you need to buy tile, or build a mine(this requires you to have a hill on the 1st ring) before placing a district base. Also, harbors and diplomatic zones suck.

The UU seems powerful, however with only 2 movement, you can't actually can make it an ancient rush. No combat bonus against warriors, which is the main power for ancient AIs.(as they start with 5 warriors). Much worse than Sumeria War Cart and cannot even early-rush a city-state. (On contrary, the Aztec Eagle Warrior is very powerful as they can capture 5 builders from every CS.) And when horseman/swordsman become online the UU becomes fully useless. The only good thing is the 4 era point. However it is still hard to get to Golden Classical with single U.

The UD is basically half-price industrial zone with defense. To make it clear, district defense is vital for AIs to avoid being rushed, but for human players this is useless, as human players seldom fail to defend their cities even without such additions. The half-price is good but you don't need a lot of IZs in the empire. Maybe the free Apprenticeship tech may do sth. (Knight rush?)

The culture bonus seems powerful, however, you don't hard-build many units. Hard-build units easily obsolete. So basically it provides a way to transfer 30-40% production into culture, which is not a great deal, maybe useful for late-game culture rush.

The mine culture bonus and culture bomb, and also the adj combat strength bonus is powerful. However the bonus work only for melee, anti-cav and ranged units. Actually even if they don't work well towards walls, the majority of combat strategies still focus on cavalry in the current patch. (That's why Byzantium is so powerful.) Having to switch to melee, anti-cav and ranged units is already a malus.

In general, it has 2 powerful but not overpowered bonuses, 2 very negative pushbacks and some minor bonuses.

I don't know the level of those players calling Gaul powerful. The Civ is interesting with new mechanisms, but not powerful , at least for me. This patch is just like the Maya & Columbia patch-- 1 superpower brainless Civ+ 1 bottom-tier but interesting Civ.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Out of curiosity, any link available for us to see for ourselves?

actually it is from local Korean wiki called "namu wiki" ( kinda like TV tropes but with more items. it is Tv tropes puls wikipedia)
If you want a RAW untranslated version here you go:

Spoiler :

"시연 영상이 공개되자마자 밸런스 붕괴로 인해 뜨거운 감자가 되었다. 한국 유저들의 대부분이 이 사기성에 대해 비판하고 있다.

일단 할슈타트 문화 특성부터 살펴보자,

처음 광산 문화폭탄에 대한 정보가 미리 간접적으로 공개되었을 때는 자원 위의 광산에 한해서만 문화폭탄이 적용될 것으로 예상했으나, 그 예상을 깨고 모든 광산에 문화폭탄이 발동되는 말도 안되는 옵션을 붙여 줬다. 이는 광산버프 특성을 가진 타 문명 중 하나인 누비아와 비교하면 문화폭탄이 최소 1~3타일 정도 차지하게 되면 초반 100~200골드 정도 되는 돈을 세이브 할 수가 있는데 비해 누비아는 고작 광산에 턴골 +2 추가가 전부다. 이는 다른 문명끼리 다른 방향성을 가진게 아니라 아예 압도적 상위호환격인 특성을 넣어서 기존의 문명 입장에서 상대적 박탈감이 너무나도 심할 수 밖에 없다.

폴란드나 마오리의 문화폭탄이 좀 심심한 느낌이라 문화폭탄의 사기성이 체감되지 않을 수 있는데, 폴란드는 주둔지나 요새 건설이라는 선결 조건이 있고, 마오리는 아예 첫 정착이 고난이라 이거라도 써서 빠르게 안정화하라는 의미로 준 것이지 문화폭탄이 절대로 사기가 아닌 것이 아니다. 당장 첫 과학기술로 바로 뚫리는 목장 문화폭탄이라는 쉬운 조건을 가진 호주가 사기 소리를 듣는 것을 생각해보자. 그런데 골은 마찬가지로 첫 과학기술로 바로 뚫리면서 자원 제약도 없는 생광산이기에 호주 이상의 평가를 받는 것이다. 아무리 문화폭탄으로 상대타일을 뺏지 못한다 한들 그 정도론 아무 패널티가 되지 않는다.

할슈타트의 사기성은 여기서 끝나는게 아니라 사기라고 볼 수 있는 부분이 더 넘쳐난다. 광산에 문화폭탄만 있는게 아니라 문화+1 추가 옵션까지 붙어있는데 이는 극초반부터 문화 스노우볼링이 너무나도 편하게 굴러가는 것을 의미한다. 문명6에서는 극초반 문화 1의 가치도 큰 걸 다들 알기 때문에 극초반부터 망치 소비해가면서 기념비를 짓는걸 생각하면 이는 말도 안 되는 옵션이라고 볼 수 밖에 없다.

또한 각 광산이 특수지구에 0.5 인접을 주는 대신 각 특수지구가 다른 특수지구에 0.5 인접을 주는건 삭제했는데 이는 조삼모사가 아니라 압도적인 버프일 수 밖에 없다. 광산은 그냥 언덕인 타일에 조건 없이 모두 다 올릴 수 있지만 특수지구는 인구수 제한을 받으면서 상당히 한정적으로 지을수 밖에 없는 건물이다. 이는 지을 수 있는 숫자에서 차이가 나며 0.5 인접을 더욱더 쉽게 가져가는 장점으로 밖에 볼 수 없다.

거기다 광산 특성을 주었다는 것은 스타팅 보정이 언덕이라는 것으로, 언덕 스타팅 보정 받는 문명들이 대부분 좋다는 소리를 듣는 것을 감안하면 더 이상의 설명은 생략한다.

그리고 고유유닛은 가이사타이는 다른 극초반 고유유닛을 가진 아즈텍, 수메르의 존재의의를 상실하게 만든다. 극초반에만 쌜 뿐만 아니라 검사테크까지도 충분히 커버하는 강력한 전투력에 에부로네스의 왕에 의한 공격력 버프가 중첩되기 시작하면 극초반에 리스크가 하나도 없이 운영이 가능해진다.

지도자 특성인 에부로네스의 왕의 군사유닛 생산력의 20% 문화지급도 상당히 골때리는 밸런스 붕괴다. 이와 비슷한 케이스가 마케도니아의 바실리코이 파이데스가 군사유닛의 생산력 25% 과학을 주는 특성과 비교 가능한데, 여기서 또한 전자가 압도적인 성능을 자랑한다. 마케도니아는 청동기술 뚫고나서, 주둔지 짓고, 바실리코이까지 지어줘야 겨우 이 특성의 효과를 적용받을 수 있다. 그에 비해 골은 그냥 게임 시작하자마자 정찰병 찍는 순간부터 그냥 문화가 들어오는 것이다. 이는 극초반 스노우볼링에서 또한 압도적 차이가 벌어지며, 문명 6에서 일반적으로 문화는 과학에 비해 2배의 가치를 갖는다고 보았을 때 마케도니아가 받는 특성을 타이밍적으로나 가성비면에서나 모두 압도하게 된다. 이는 앞의 광산에서 누비아와의 비교사례처럼 압도적인 상위호환격인 특성이라고 볼 수 밖에 없다.

그렇다고 고유특수지구인 오피둠도 별로인 특수지구도 아니다. 독일이 고유유닛이 없는 취급이고, 지도자 특성인 도국상대로 추가데미지도 그렇게 큰 도움이 안 되지만 강력한 한자 특수지구 덕분에 오리지널때는 압도적 S급에서 최근 A급까지 떨어쟜어도 항상 상위권에 유지한 걸 생각해보면 한자보다도 빨리 나오고 인접보너스 챙기기 쉬운 오피둠은 골의 내정을 순식간에 안정화시킬 것이다. 물론 방어능력과 빠른 타이밍까지 있는건 덤.

같은 뉴프 팩의 그콜이나 에티오피아부터 이어진 고질적인 문제이지만 골은 정도를 넘었다. 만약 골이 단독 팩으로 나왔다면 깔끔하게 모드를 해제시켜둘 수 있겠으나 많은 플레이어들이 원하던 비잔티움과 함께 출시된 데다가 플레이어들의 성원 중 하나였던 정상기를 지울 수 있는 모드까지 나옴으로서 해제하기도 뭣하다.

종합적으로 모든 특성이 사기에 사기, 소위 비하적으로 불리는 씹덕모드 문명 수준이라고 불려도 할 말이 없다. 한국 유저의 대부분이 혼자만 독보적으로 강한 모드를 게임의 재미를 해친다며 싫어함을 넘어 혐오하는 수준인 것을 감안했을 때, 골의 성능은 정말로 독보적으로 따로 노는 수준이라 더욱 심하게 거부감을 얻은 것으로 보인다. 비잔티움도 물론 말이 없던 건 아니지만 골에 비하면 훨씬 납득할 수 있는 성능이라..

아직 플레이가 시작되지는 않았으나 러시아보다 더 강한 문명이 될 수도 있다. 물론 도시마다 18생산이 기본으로 나올 수 있는 러시아이지만 혹시 모른다.

향후 평가에 대해서는 추가바람/"

I deleted it because I found it too unfair.

 

[acluewithout]

Is the Civ OP?

No.

Is the tache OP? OMG, so much tache! Totally OP.

Seriously though. Districts will suck. I agree the UU is blank - cute, but blank.

If you’re playing Gaul, you’re playing because it’s a unique set play style and for the tache. It’s okay for Civs to suck. Just so long as they suck but fun.

 

[Revanchist]

I think Gaul will be A but definitely not S. They will be more consistent than Maya, but not on the level of Gran Colombia

 

[Aurelesk]

The Gallic civilization is sure an odd one.

Even if it is a Cultural civilization, it is not a Touristic one. Except if the formula changed, the Mines are not elligible for Tourism at Flight (currently). Worst: Mines reduce Appeal, so you are less likely to have Seaside Resorts and National Parks. Contrary to Macedonia, there is no risk to climb too fast the Technology Tree and therefore, not being able to produce units with up-to-date policy cards, because the units cost go to Culture instead of Science.

The Gallic can't go easily for an "Infinite City Sprawl" strategy, because they will run out of tiles for districts quite quickly. They desperately need those Culture Bomb. Fortunately, they do not steal territory. In the end, this is a huge economy boost but will not really matter at land grabbing, because the main limiting factor is Settler production, even if there would be some border dispute.

We need to know how much the Gaesatae cost is. Do not see it as a 20 with additionnal +10. Warrior is one of the weakest unit, so almost every units are stronger than him. The units that do not have more than 20 Combat Strength are the Warrior, the Scout, the Slinger and probably the Archer and the Skirmisher (depend on offense / defense). Instead, see the Gaesatae as a 30 Base CS Warrior that have -10 CS against Scout / Skirmisher and Slinger / Archer. and struggling against other Warrior. Since the Eagle Warrior is 28 CS, my guess is the cost of Gaesatae will be also 65 Production instead of 40.
Still, they do enjoy +5 against defensible district, which will help a lot against Barbarian Outpost (they will destroys them) and at grabbing city. We need to know if the +10 work against cities (I guess no?).

Oppidum is a mixed bag. It seems that the major adjacency bonuses from Aqueducts, Dams and Canals, and the minor adjacency bonuses from Lumber Mills and Districts are removed. Instead, they have the double of standard adjacency on Strategic Ressource and Quarry (technically: they removed the Mine adjacency but put it back in the Hallstatt Culture's ability). Basicly, you cannot plan to have huge Production Industrial Zone through green support district, and instead need to roll with the RNG distribution.
They unlock instantly the Apprenticeship Tech because it would be weird to not being able to build the Workshop right away, but you get +1 Production to Mine with that tech, consolidating the power of early Mines even further. Contrary to the Hansa, it will be hard to achieve high adjacency with the Oppidum. What make Germany OP is the extra district slot, meaning they can build whatever they want. But it still is a half-cost district giving Defense and a free Tech, available way earlier, so one of the best UI of the game by default.
We need to know where the Oppidum is going to be. If it is at Iron Working, it is still late and it allows to unlock the Swordsman, meaning we are loosing the Gaesatae edge.


In the end, the Gallic are an odd civilization that I suspect to be really good, except if they put the Oppidum at Iron Working.

• Mines do Culture Bomb and have +1 Culture.
• The Gallic gain extra Production with Mines and Oppidum, which unlocks Apprenticeship, which gives additionnal Production to Mine.
• They can convert unit Production to Culture with Ambiorix' ability, so even more Culture into Civic Tree climbing.
• They have a powerful early unit to put Production pn: the Gaesatae.
• Having a never-ending horde of Gaesatae allow to trigger the +2 CS for each adjacent units, making them even more strong.
• That unit is a formidable tool against Barbarian Outpost and early rushes, but "weak" to Warrior and ranged units.
• In case they are going to face early rushes, they can set up early Walls and count on Oppidum for Defense.

They have an early strategy. Now, we need to know how powerful this will really be.

 

[leandrombraz]

2. the unite unit Gaestae is OP as well since it can cover swordsman easily and makesearily unique unit civs like Aztec and Sumer look weak and pathetic

The Gaesatae is great if you're fighting units with higher base strength, but if you aren't, it's just an overpriced warrior that do a bit more damage to district defenses. I think it's actually nice that it can counter Eagle Warriors and War-Carts without it being overpowered against normal warriors. Good design imo.

The King of the Eburones ability seems to be their real strength in combat, but I wouldn't call it OP.

 

[JesseS]

Still, they do enjoy +5 against defensible district, which will help a lot against Barbarian Outpost (they will destroys them) and at grabbing city. We need to know if the +10 work against cities (I guess no?).

The +5 against defensive districts means cities and encampments, not barb outposts. That said, they will be great against barb spearmen, fighting at a minimum of 42 strength (20+10 for anti-cav+10 for having a lower base combat strength+2 for the spearman being next to them)

 

[bite]

I think it is because people think any mine is a culture bomb, but I assume it is just on a resource that limits the effect.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think it is because people think any mine is a culture bomb, but I assume it is just on a resource that limits the effect.

According to the first look, it's any mine. But you can't steal from other civs and you need to use it to place districts.