Is Germany overpowered?

[mboettcher]

I've played a few games with them now on both leaders on emperor and conclued that yes they are.

The synergy between UU, UB and their leaders is insane. They can take multiple pathways to victory (while many civs are confined to a few or even one feasible one), and they can handle many different types of maps.

Lets elaborate: Bismark (Ind, Exp) and Freddy (Phil, Org) are both economic developers. With powerful traits. Bismark build wonders 50% and double speed of forge, granary and harbor and gets +2 health per city. Freddy gets a whopping -50% civic maintenance, +100% GP rate (yes we all know how strong this is) and double speed of university, lighthouse, courthouse and assembly plant. PLus the Germans get an additional 50% build speed of assembly plant with coal.

The assembly plant also gives an additional +2 engineers. Both leaders are ideal for developing an advanced economy of mid sized civs that can keep up with or outpace larger ones. They don't need to worry about fighting earlier preindustrial wars that are expensive and difficult to fight over long distances and impossible across continents. Even if one is succesful in early wars it is hard to hold onto and pay for the gains (the biggest downfall of the Romans and their Praetorians in Civ IV). The assembly plant combined with forge and industrial park allow a whopping 8 engineers for all cities and a jaw dropping 11 in the iron works city. Talk about farming engineers for space race or just plain production. This is why with Germany if I have a city that can support the pop early I put Ironworks and National epic together and just farm wonders and engineers. The sheer production by city is amazing, especially when combined with representation, you can run SE economy longer and more effectively.

Once the Germans get to the industrial age watch the hell out. The
Panzer is the strongest UU for its era and it enjoys the arguably longest reign (seals suck so they don;t count as having a reign; takes longest to get to all the techs for modern armor as opposed to Praetorian => macemen), is much easier to pay for and produce in numbers, thanks to a well developed economy, and its easier to build support units for them.
Panzers have less trouble against contemporary units than do praetorians (the fictional strongest era unit) Praetorians boast a 8 str vs 7.5 against axes (though this is amplied by promotions a lot because base for axe is 5) and 9.6 vs 8.1 horse archer with shock (two promotions each). Panzers have the dominating 28 str of tanks which overwhelms infantry's 20 in almost all situations, can acquire retreat capacity, and dominate tanks like no other to the point where they are useless against them (42 to 28 is a big dif for same cost units). The only counter is the anti panzer unit they stuck in the game (ironically in a german cameo) the antitank inf. Which pretty much lose to tanks after 3 promotions (tank with combat III vs anti tank with combat III and ambush:36.4 vs 35.7). Plus, the biggest advantage, is that panzers have the least trouble against their upgrade than do any UU in the game. Praetorians get whupped by macemen (12 to 8), redcoats by inf (20 to 14), etc. Panzers, however, after two promotions stack like this vs modern armor (combat II for both). 48 and 1 first strike to 47.6. Not too shabby.

A civilization designed to tank until a later era and then steam roll the map. A good Civ to use to beat a higher difficulty. Just stay alive long enough and you win. Not Really fair but whatever. Your thoughts pls. Perhaps counter examples.

 

[Verge]

I'm not the biggest fan of Bismark, due to my ambivalence towards the Industrious trait. Frederick is great.

As you said, Germany is a good civilization for a player who likes to look at things in the long-term, likely aiming for a space win. I don't think it's a particularly good idea to try and hold off on major military action until Germany's unique building and unit come into play, since that's really far too late for a solid win. On lower levels or smaller maps, however, I can see such a strategy working out fine. In any case, a late game Germany domination win is going to have a harder time racking up as big of a score as an earlier domination bid, if score is of a concern.

Otherwise, I agree Germany is a fun civilization to play.

 

[AlessioCerci]

I don't like Bismark either for the same reason (plus expansive isn't top notch)
The UB is meh, quicker production speed with coal is nice and the extra engineer slots are ok. But I prefer to get merchants around this stage for Sid Sushi's (my facourite corp)
And mech infantry upgraded from anti-tank units own panzers (or any tanks for that matter) but the comp wouldnt do that i expect.

Still i do like frederick but overpowered, no.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

This is too well written to be satire. But it has to be a joke.

Germany is a competitor for the weakest civ in the game UU and UB wise. . Panzers are useless. I have never ever had to fight against an enemy with tanks, at least up through monarch difficulty. Games are usually won by the time you hit industrialism. If the enemy gets tanks before or at the same time you do, you did a poor job teching.

The UB is useless too. Being able to assign 2 extra engineers that late in the game is not helpful. There are very few good wonders left that late in the game compared to the early game. The pentagon and Cristo Redentor are good, but not game breaking. The UN can be beelined relatively easily, ensuring you're the one who gets it. And great engineers are worthless for space race. You can't use them to rush spaceship parts. And by this point most people have gotten so many great people, it'd takes forever to pop new ones, even with a ton of engineers running. As for pure production, engineer specialists only give 2 hammers, very ineffective compared to a workshop.

 

[Thanny]

This is too well written to be satire. But it has to be a joke.

Germany is a competitor for the weakest civ in the game UU and UB wise. . Panzers are useless. I have never ever had to fight against an enemy with tanks, at least up through monarch difficulty. Games are usually won by the time you hit industrialism. If the enemy gets tanks before or at the same time you do, you did a poor job teching.

I believe the standard response to this is, "Perhaps you should play at a higher difficulty level."

That's advice for everyone who feels the need to post something about already winning before X comes along. Quit bragging and play against tougher opponents.

 

[DigitalBoy]

I actually like Bismark. Well, I never actually play him, but at a surface glance he looks like a fun guy to play as.

He has production bonuses for granaries, forges, and assembly plants (with access to coal) and has the expansive trait to help cope with unhealthiness. He's like the ultimate industrialist.

Overpowered though? No, definitely not.

 

[Minmaster]

bismark is THE civ to play if you play OCC games.

 

[Molybdeus]

I believe the standard response to this is, "Perhaps you should play at a higher difficulty level."

That's advice for everyone who feels the need to post something about already winning before X comes along. Quit bragging and play against tougher opponents.

Except that at higher difficult levels it's even more important that your UU be available early. The difference between War Chariots and Panzers only increases as you ramp up the difficulty, in my opinion.

 

[mystyfly]

Germany isn't overpowered. They're only strong in the late game, which often isn't even played (some play aggressive games and don't bother with culture-cra.p or ss-s.hit)
So I think the Inkas are more overpowered as the Germans, for dominating the Ancient era which is by far the most important.
Bismarck is imo a weak leader but Frederick is a very strong warmongerer. Imagine being able to war AND tech in an endurable pace...

bismark is THE civ to play if you play OCC games.

Bismarck is no civ.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

I believe the standard response to this is, "Perhaps you should play at a higher difficulty level."

That's advice for everyone who feels the need to post something about already winning before X comes along. Quit bragging and play against tougher opponents.

The higher the difficulty the more important it is to win early and war early. Being peaceful until the late industrial age is a failing tactic on any difficulty, especially on more difficult ones. One of the advantages humans have over the AI on higher difficulties is that we can think better and war better. Letting an AI peacefully tech their way that late is playing to their strengths, since they get cheaper research costs. By the time you get tanks they'll be launching their ship.

 

[mystyfly]

The higher the difficulty the more important it is to win early and war early. Being peaceful until the late industrial age is a failing tactic on any difficulty

well pick any LOW difficulty and replace early war with rexing. you'll end up with ~the same amount of territory

 

[AfterShafter]

The higher the difficulty the more important it is to win early and war early. Being peaceful until the late industrial age is a failing tactic on any difficulty, especially on more difficult ones. One of the advantages humans have over the AI on higher difficulties is that we can think better and war better. Letting an AI peacefully tech their way that late is playing to their strengths, since they get cheaper research costs. By the time you get tanks they'll be launching their ship.

I don't really think that this makes for a distinguishingly black mark against the Germans though.. Early UU's are more often vital to victory, but you can perform most of their early-crippling functions with regular units quite well... And a late UU can be a game-breaker in a late war - stopping a cultural victory, razing a capital that has launched a space ship, etc. Panzers aren't the best UU out there, but they can be absolutely evil given the right circumstances.

Honestly, based on the experiences you're describing, you should be moving up a difficulty level. If you *always* have a tech advantage late game so that a unit like Panzers are useless, you're probably playing a bit low for your ability. I'm frequently finding myself in tooth and nail wars late game, versus CPU's with virtually tech levels virtually identical to mine.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Yeah, i have been thinking of moving up to Emperor. And i've fought against enemies that have teched Industrialism, and it seems like the AI just doesn't like to build them. If they've been peaceful most of the game they just prefer to upgrade their old units to infantry and build more infantry instead of building tanks. There's also the fact that the AI doesn't always choose the best techs to research. Even if they're ahead in research, they'll choose stuff like communism, radio, mass media, instead of military techs, while most players will beeline military techs and backfill everything else.

 

[AfterShafter]

Yeah, i have been thinking of moving up to Emperor. And i've fought against enemies that have teched Industrialism, and it seems like the AI just doesn't like to build them. If they've been peaceful most of the game they just prefer to upgrade their old units to infantry and build more infantry instead of building tanks. There's also the fact that the AI doesn't always choose the best techs to research. Even if they're ahead in research, they'll choose stuff like communism, radio, mass media, instead of military techs, while most players will beeline military techs and backfill everything else.

One thing I notice about the AI in BTS more than previous expansions is that, different CPU's really prioritize different techs. I've had a few guys who came at me with tanks like bats out of hell (Monty and Shaka, as you might expect)... But many AI's focus on odd things. I've gone to war with Mansa Musa when he had assembly line - but not rifling... And he was heading towards Mass Media during the war! So, conditionally, Panzers can be useless... But having a tank that demolishes other tanks really can't hurt, just in case

But yeah, it isn't the best UU out there... Far from it. I just think it's a few notches above the worst.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

A monty, shaka, or genghis with tech parity is about the scariest thing I can imagine.

 

[mystyfly]

infantry is the AIs industrial defense unit. they probabely don't build tanks b/c they don't plan to attack. besides, infantry really is cheaper than tanks which don't do a good job defending. now if you're planning to launch or to get culture, would you rather build some tanks or many infantry for the same cost?

 

[AfterShafter]

A monty, shaka, or genghis with tech parity is about the scariest thing I can imagine.

It very, very rarely happens... But when it does - oh dear

 

[Common Sensei]

It very, very rarely happens... But when it does - oh dear

I would add Ragnar to the list.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

I've almost never played against Ragnar because I usually play as him. Does he always fall behind in tech despite the financial trait?

 

[AfterShafter]

I've almost never played against Ragnar because I usually play as him. Does he always fall behind in tech despite the financial trait?

Yeah, he's usually not doing great for tech. The thing which keeps these guys up for "tech parity" sometimes though is that, despite in reality being behind, they'll often gun for military techs well before any other AI... So even if they're down 8 techs on Mansa Musa, they may have grenadiers and cuirassiers, where M&M doesn't.