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Is it good to avoid getting scientific method?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Beerchugger, May 14, 2012.

  1. Beerchugger

    Beerchugger Chieftain

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    On an offshoot of another post I was wondering if anyone else try’s to avoid getting scientific method as long as possible?

    I just love monasteries and their bonus, particularly when they have the AP religion, and hate to lose them. Am I the only one who does this or is Sci Method worth it?
     
  2. elmurcis

    elmurcis Emperor

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    Scientific Method open doors to Physics and possible free Great Scientist (if get if 1st) so... If you still can win AI on this race, Monastery research boost will pay back.. and revealing Oil also is important part of late game and let you to understand if you have it in your borders or not...
    Only time I would consider avoid SMethod would be if I have lost Physics race and have Great Library.. Just to get another Great Scientist by myself.
     
  3. UnforcedError

    UnforcedError Settler

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    I hate obsoleting the Great Library and the monasteries too because I hate to lose the research bonuses. However, SM is the prerequisite for multiple great techs. The +2 H from monasteries cannot compete with the effectiveness of state property workshops. Or the GL with the extra food from Biology. And airships rock :)
     
  4. jordiflor

    jordiflor Chieftain

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    It is unavoidable that your research faces a setback in the short term with Scientific Method (what an irony!!!), specially if you have TGL. It also obsoletes The Parthenon, which combined with TGL, pumps out lots of GS.
    But SM leads to 2 key techs in the game: Biology and Communism, to get +1:food: in farms and workshops (with State Property) respectively. This pays off by far for the lost monastery bonuses.
    In addition, if you are first to Communism and Physics, you get a GSpy (invariably burnt out for a GAge) and a GS.

    That said, I always research Rifling before SM
     
  5. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    I do this often since I usually head to Assembly Line for both space and war games if I failed to build about 20-30 city empire with ancient/medevil units.

    Up to about Emperror level you can beat AI to Physics after going for Assembly Line with proper bulbing. Sometimes if you have science flavor AI in the game, they can make a dent in that plan. Airship are the best early recon unit and I see why players like it.
     
  6. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera King

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    Due to the various advantages and disadvantages of getting it I would have to conclude:

    SM is a love/hate relationship.
     
  7. Pisskop

    Pisskop Goblin Axeman

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    I trade for it if possible, and steal it if not... Of course, if I am so far ahead/behind...
     
  8. Riflin'Joe

    Riflin'Joe Prince

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    The two main factors affecting this decision are likely to be my choice of economic civic and my main war unit for the period. If I'm going for a war with rifles and/or cannons, I'll typically head for Assembly Line and delay Sci Meth, but if I'm going mounted, the best supporting unit is the airship.
     
  9. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

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    I delay it too.
    If, I am doing well in the tech race, then I feel comfortable in teching other things before this.
    If, I am struggling to beat the AI with superior units, then I will research Infantry, artillery and MachineGunners before this.
    So, either way, the answer is yes.

    I tend to delay any tech that obsoletes a wonder that I have.
    Such as: Corporation obsoleting The Great Lighthouse or Astronomy obsoleting The Colossus.
    Corporation gets delayed for as long as possible in most of my games.
    If, I am playing as Spain and I need to finish building a few more Citadels, it is worth delaying Economics for the +5xp on all seige units. Spain's cannons rock!
    I am usually ahead on tech. Obviously, I wouldn't want to lose out on the Great Merchant.
     
  10. Choggy

    Choggy Prince

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    Totally agree, generally the combination of State Property and Biology more than make up for the loss of Great Library and the other obsoleted Wonders unless you have a small civ.

    Most importantly though it depends on what victory condition you're going for.. It's a pre-req for Space Race and UN victory so there's no point in delaying it if that's your VC target, and you can't avoid it for a Time Victory. However I can't see any reason why you'd want it for Cultural unless you need Mass Media and Conquest/Domination victories don't need it unless you're need Nukes, modern warfare units or destroyers/transports.

    That said, I usually tech around it, get a vassal to beeline it for me and then divert his tech path whilst I grab Physics, Biology and Communism.
     
  11. MilesBeyond

    MilesBeyond Prince

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    This. It depends on what you've got. None of the individual elements being obsoleted are going to hit you that hard, unless you've got a lot of different religions. If you're PHI or can afford to run Pacifism then losing out on the Parthenon isn't that big of a loss. TGL on it's own isn't a huge issue either - especially since you can still easily get away with CS at that point.

    The problem is, when you've got TGL and several monasteries in a science city (with, say, Oxford and a few non-free scientists), which really isn't a terribly unrealistic setup, the hit to your research can hurt. It depends on the context - if you're facing some unfriendly neighbours, make sure you've got Rifling, Assembly Line and probably Steel before making the switch, because if someone yanks those out while you're still piddling away at Physics or Communism, you're in trouble.


    The other tech I hate researching is Corporation. Losing a trade route for every coastal city hurts on some maps, especially once you've got harbours up. I'll actually usually end up putting it off until I've gotten the prereq tech and GP for whatever corp I want to found, then trade for it.
     
  12. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Biology and Communism are way too hard to pass up-- the later is just disgustingly good, especially if you reach it first. These are gamechanging techs, and having them while others don't is huge. Most of the wonders that obsolete by SM aren't very relevant by that time. The Great Library is invaluable by the time it is built, but by the time you can reach SciMeth, 2 scientists and some GPP aren't as valuable enough since Great Scientists in general have devalued quite a bit. The Partheon GPP boost isn't that hot anymore either.

    On maps with more than one landmass, you need it to find oil.

    On the other hand, if you're aiming at finishing the game, then you might not have the time to research that. Or you'd rather barrel down Assembly Line and Railroad which can deliver the final punch.

    And of course, the influence of the Derp Palace means a lot in this too. I think it's stupid that you can't build monastaries at all and makes it a pain to build missionaries afterwards. Given how stupidly powerful the AP is, this gets annoying.
     
  13. UnforcedError

    UnforcedError Settler

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    I second that. I got into a habit of building at least one monastery of all religions that had spread to me (you never know), but it's really silly that you need OR to build missionaries ever again after SM. I play on immortal, and in many games I can't afford to run any religion at all (e.g. three religious fractions, all close to you). Running OR in such cases is only useful if you have someone like Sury on the map for the favourite civic bonuses.
     
  14. jordiflor

    jordiflor Chieftain

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    I had this same habit, but this is only important if you go decidedly for Cultural Victory. Otherwise, religion isn't important anymore at SM time
     
  15. UnforcedError

    UnforcedError Settler

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    It can be important if you run FR and don't want to put too much effort into happy buildings. Missionaries are just cheaper as long as you're not trying to spread like 5 religions around. (I almost never go for culture btw :D)
     
  16. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    I pretty much second the opinions that post-SM techs like Physics, Biology, and Communism are worth the cost of losing monasteries. If I desperately need the missionaries afterwards, I still have the monasteries I already built and the ability to switch to Organized Religion (which for reasons that still escape me, allows you to build missionaries for all religions, not just you state religion).

    When you consider the research bonuses from libraries, universities, observatories, and academies, the monastery research bonus is tiny unless you managed to get three or more of them in a single city.
     

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