Is it true...

[WoundedKnight]

...that if you're the first person to research a tech, the cost is the highest, then 1/2 has many beakers for the 2nd person, 1/3 as much for the 3rd, and so forth?

If so, that's another cheap trick penalizing players who try to get ahead in the science race.

 

[Shabbaman]

Originally posted by WoundedKnight
...that if you're the first person to research a tech, the cost is the highest, then 1/2 has many beakers for the 2nd person, 1/3 as much for the 3rd, and so forth?

If so, that's another cheap trick penalizing players who try to get ahead in the science race.

It's not as simple as you say, but research cost is highly influenced by the number of contacted civilizations who already have researched the technology.

Penalty? Well, think about how science works in real life. How many 'civilizations' discovered the printing press? It's far easier to copy someone's knowledge.

Check mydiseases formula in my favorite thread

Research cost = (MM * COST * (K - N) / 10K) - Research done so far

Research cost and research done so far (beakers) in gold
COST is the cost specified in the editor.
MM = map modifiers =
Tiny 16
Small 20
Standard 24
Large 32
Huge 40

N = number of civs on the diplomacy screen that have discovered the tech.

K is constant for any given number of civs on a map. Values of K so far :
2 civs K=3
3 civs K=4
4 civs K=6
5 civs K=6.66
6 civs K=9
7 civs K=10
8 civs K=12
9 civs K=12.5
10 civs K=15
11 civs K=16
12 civs K=18

P.S. Maybe we should put this in the F.A.Q., this question seems to come up every week...

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by WoundedKnight
...that if you're the first person to research a tech, the cost is the highest, then 1/2 has many beakers for the 2nd person, 1/3 as much for the 3rd, and so forth?

If so, that's another cheap trick penalizing players who try to get ahead in the science race.

Another AI cheat??

I guess that explains why the human can't get ahead in Science as he could in Civ 2 no matter what he tries.

 

[Shabbaman]

Originally posted by Zouave


Another AI cheat??

I guess that explains why the human can't get ahead in Science as he could in Civ 2 no matter what he tries.

It isn't an ai cheat. It works for human players too.

 

[Maple]

This is another one of the places where Firaxis spent too much time on petty details when they could have been working on something more important, such as the quality of the AI. It makes the game barely more realistic when there are other flaws that stick out like sore thumbs.

 

[zeeter]

Originally posted by Zouave


Another AI cheat??

I guess that explains why the human can't get ahead in Science as he could in Civ 2 no matter what he tries.

I think that this concept is brilliant. Why would I have to completely research the Printing Press when the Zulus have already done so? I didn't know that this was in the game, but it makes sense.

Did the (real life) Russians have to fully discover Flight? No. Sure, it still took a bit of research to understand the concepts. Did the Japanese need to fully discover computers? No, they took the American example and made it better.

Benefits:
1. Difficulty in trying to have a run-away technology lead.
2. Provides a challenge

Detriments:
1. People will have difficulty trying to have run-away technologies.
2. People will actually be challenged somewhat by the computer.

This ain't Civ2!

 

[mydisease]

Originally posted by Shabbaman

Check mydiseases formula in my favorite thread

P.S. Maybe we should put this in the F.A.Q., this question seems to come up every week...

Oh dear, now you make me feel guilty for not having finshed the formula for 13-16 civs. Anyway, my holidays began today, so I'll get right back onto it! And yes, most people seem to labour under the delusion that tech cost is constant and independant of map size, so it would be good to put in the FAQ. However, I still haven't worked out the rounding for the formula, so the numbers it gives are slightly off. For all the mathematical genius' out there, I'll post all the data I used to derive the formula so you can have a go, because I've been stumped by this one for 2 months now.

Originally posted by Zouave

Another AI cheat??

I guess that explains why the human can't get ahead in Science as he could in Civ 2 no matter what he tries.

This is how I reacted when I first worked it out as well, but its actually quite reflective of reality (for once ), a reflection of free scientific sharing of ideas. And it is for the human player as well as the AI, so if you are behind in tech, techs are cheaper to research, so not really an AI cheat. Where the AI does cheat is on tech trading, the original issue in the thread referred to above, which I have not got around to looking at yet. Basically though, on higher levels, AI will trade tech to itself for less, offer less for tech and charge more.

Maybe a good modmaker could even mod the game so that you could cut out the effect of you discovering a tech on the research cost of the AI, using a wonder with the name "Patent Law" so you could do get a tech lead easier.

Anyway read the original thread for some suggestions on comms trading based on the formula.

 

[Shabbaman]

Welcome back! I could put the formula in some excel model thing (I study for things like that) and I've already been doing that, but I don't see the point of it.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Shabbaman

Maybe we should put this in the F.A.Q., this question seems to come up every week...

done! Thanx!

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

to clarify one thing: since the human goes first in the turns, then comes the AI, the AI gets the bonus for the human researching it, so it has a slight, unfair advantage here!

 

[Shabbaman]

Yeah, but the human player starts the game...

P.S. Good job on the FAQ, but thank Mydisease for the formula/

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

yeah, it's an advantage because you move first, and a disadvantage because the AI can rush and draft in flipped or taken cities and gets the tech cheaper.

 

[BCLG100]

also if you are at war and you move first then you have the possibility to stop the militry units or whatever they are building in the cities which you capture

 

[mydisease]

Shabbaman, I just realised you made the same mistake that I first made in posting the map modifiers, they should all have a 0 on the end as they do in the editor, ie.

Tiny 160
Small 200
Standard 240
Large 320
Huge 400

And also to Lt. 'Killer' M. , you copied the wrong numbers into the FAQ, so if its not too much trouble, could you change them? And don't worry about giving me the credit, it was Shabbaman's thread.

Originally posted by Shabbaman
Welcome back! I could put the formula in some excel model thing (I study for things like that) and I've already been doing that, but I don't see the point of it.

I'm not sure what you mean by an excel model, but if you mean putting a table of values for the research cost of every tech on every map size, with every possible number of civs, I don't really see the point either. AI tech trading is so rampant and unpredictable that the values would change rapidly and have little use. I suppose a table of the raw tech costs from the editor would be useful, but I've already seen one somewhere, so I'll find that and post it if anyone's interested.

 

[mydisease]

I'll post this separately because it relates to a different question. Yes, the human goes first, followed by a predetermined order of AI civs, but does this really matter?

No, because each turn is effectively cut into individual turn blocks, where each turn block is one civ's collective movements. Your view that your turn block is first is only relative. You think that your turn block is first because it occurs in the present, every previous turn block is in the past and every coming turn block is in the future and act according to what the past has brought to the present and how you want to change the future. However, whenever an AI civ has its turn, it experiences the same point of view, every previous turn block is in the past and every coming turn block is in the future and it acts accoding to what the past has brought to the present and how it wants to change the future.

The game is in fact a sequence of turn blocks and not turns and so your turn blocks position relative to the position of the other turn blocks in an individual turn is irrelevant as the game is a continuous progression of turn blocks. Yes, you get a tiny intial bonus by having the first turn block in the first turn of the game, but after the first turn this bonus disappears and other factors such as variations in strategy and starting terrain take over.

Therefore, there is no disadvantage in starting first as your present position will always be relative. So there you go, mydisease's Special Theory Of Relativity. BTW mydisease's General Theory Of Relativity is that Civ3 is curved.

 

[Shabbaman]

Originally posted by mydisease
I'm not sure what you mean by an excel model, but if you mean putting a table of values for the research cost of every tech on every map size, with every possible number of civs, I don't really see the point either. AI tech trading is so rampant and unpredictable that the values would change rapidly and have little use. I suppose a table of the raw tech costs from the editor would be useful, but I've already seen one somewhere, so I'll find that and post it if anyone's interested.

Useless, correct. But in fact it's not so difficult, because you can calculate the cost through The Formula (that's what it's for, innit?) using 'pop down' menu's. It's not very useful, but someone asked about it.

On the turn issue: research is not to be considered upon start, because the research cost is depending on the number of contacted civilizations. Well, thats the big O when you start... The benefit comes upon First Contact, and then it's just a matter of fact who's block turn it is.

Curved? lol
Sure it's curved. It doesn't fit on a square cd.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by mydisease
I'll post this separately because it relates to a different question. Yes, the human goes first, followed by a predetermined order of AI civs, but does this really matter?

Sorry, i should have made this clearer:

It is not human science turn, human production turn, human move turn, 1st AI science turn, 1st AI production turn, 1st AI move turn, 2nd AI science turn, 2nd AI production turn, 2nd AI move turn!

It is:

Human science turn, 1st AI science turn, 2nd AI science turn, human production turn, 1st AI production turn, 2nd AI production turn, human move turn, 1st AI move turn, 2nd AI move turn......

this means: a city fill flip to me after my poroduction, thus I cannot complete a rushing there that turn. Thus, I have 1 defender when the AI moves. A city flips from me before the AI production turn, so it can rush something right away, then have it produced before I move! This is why you will often encounter 2 or even 3 (drafting) Defenders in a freshly flipped city!

 

[mydisease]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.

It is not human science turn, human production turn, human move turn, 1st AI science turn, 1st AI production turn, 1st AI move turn, 2nd AI science turn, 2nd AI production turn, 2nd AI move turn!

It is:

Human science turn, 1st AI science turn, 2nd AI science turn, human production turn, 1st AI production turn, 2nd AI production turn, human move turn, 1st AI move turn, 2nd AI move turn......

this means: a city fill flip to me after my poroduction, thus I cannot complete a rushing there that turn. Thus, I have 1 defender when the AI moves. A city flips from me before the AI production turn, so it can rush something right away, then have it produced before I move! This is why you will often encounter 2 or even 3 (drafting) Defenders in a freshly flipped city!

Sorry I didn't realise that was how turns work, but it now seems obvious in the light of your example. And I was thinking all the time that the AI was cheating me! And flips happen in the production turn I assume?

Originally posted by BCLG100

also if you are at war and you move first then you have the possibility to stop the militry units or whatever they are building in the cities which you capture

I just thought I'd make this clear to myself. The AI production turns have already occured so the units for "this" turn are already built. Yes, you can stop their next turn's production, but so what, they can stop your next turns production on their move turn. This is correct isn't it?

P.S. Lt. 'Killer' M. can you please edit the research cost formula in the FAQ with the correct map modifiers. I repeat, they should be:

Tiny 160
Small 200
Standard 240
Large 320
Huge 400

And technically the civs don't have to research the tech, they only have to obtain it.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by mydisease

And flips happen in the production turn I assume?

Yep!

I just thought I'd make this clear to myself. The AI production turns have already occured so the units for "this" turn are already built. Yes, you can stop their next turn's production, but so what, they can stop your next turns production on their move turn. This is correct isn't it?

are you refering to a quote from me??? i can't find the original... butoK, you get to move first. Say you have one Cavalry in a city next to an enemy city with 1 Spearman. You both rush a Cavalry. You get to move first, so you attack the Cavalry and the Spearman and take to town. If it was humans move, ai prod, AI move you would only have to attack once...

BUT: the AI cannot move rushed units in a flipped town beofre you ahve a chance to attakcv them - provided you have units close enough!

P.S. Lt. 'Killer' M. can you please edit the research cost formula in the FAQ with the correct map modifiers. I repeat, they should be:

Tiny 160
Small 200
Standard 240
Large 320
Huge 400

I'll recheck and update the FAQ, thanx! and I'll give you credit, too thanx again for the work!

 

[mydisease]

Yeah, sorry the quote was from BCLG100, 6 posts up. My html isn't very good so I copied and pasted the first quote tags with your name in and forgot to change the name. And I see you've put the correct map modifiers in the FAQ at last! I'll try and get the last 4 values of K by the end of the week so that the formula is complete.