Is it worth saving an ally Civ that shares your ideology?

[_GreenRaider_]

I'm in a game right now as America where the majority Ideology is Order and my ideology is Freedom, only 2 other civs share my ideology (Brazil and the Ottomans), both are getting Dominated bad, the Ottomans had 5 cities and are down to 1 thanks to the ever expanding Russian Civ, is it worth Liberating the Ottomans? Moving units isn't an issue as they share borders with me and my military is 3rd largest. Thanks.

 

[redwings1340]

Liberating will always get you a nice diplo bonus, and you'll be able to make good trades with the civs you liberate without taking on happiness or diplo penalties for using a military. Also, stopping an overexpansionist enemy Russia from conquering everything always sounds like a good idea. Basically, I don't know if there are any ideologically specific reasons to do it, but there are plenty of normal game reasons to rescue your ally, especially if they are close by geographically and you already have the army to do it. Just be prepared to defend your ally for the long haul, or maybe free the Ottomans and push on in to Russia itself.

 

[_GreenRaider_]

I will start moving units to the border now! Thanks for the reply!

 

[GhostSalsa]

Only if you are aiming for Diplo Victory.

Bringing a civ back to life gets you their vote which is a handy bonus. But then you need to wait until after the Ottomans lose their last city (ideally DOW Russia right after). Also, you have to keep the recalled civ alive until World Leader vote, which can be a hassle.

Culture-wise, they will have lost all their great works, so they aren't going to do you any favors fighting ideological pressure, in fact they might be forced to flip ideologies after you liberate them anyway. Rather, the main goal of ideological warfare is to completely take down your opponent (the tourism/culture leader following wrong ideology) and steal their works, rather than shore up lost causes. So in a culture victory scenario you would only liberate Ottomans as a perk while stomping Russia.

AIs who are behind on tourism won't catch up. It's not uncommon to be the lone wolf when you play freedom anyway. Meaning, it's better to focus on internal culture/tourism to resist pressure than to cultivate allies.

Science victory, better to ignore the whole thing unless Russia can potentially keep you from finishing your spaceship. again you would only liberate Ottomans as a perk to taking down Russia.

 

[isau]

Wait for Russia to wipe them completely out before deciding whether to liberate. At that point if you have the units and they are doing nothing other than sitting around (pplus you think you could win the fight), it could be worth it. On the other hand it may just make turn times take really long.

Russia would be unlikely to declare war on the liberated civ a second time, in my experience. The biggest reason to revive and liberate in this situation, IMO, is to friend the revived civ, forward cash to them, and get an extra Research Agreement out of the deal.

BTW a really underhanded thing to do would be to take two cities, but only give the Ottomans ONE city back. Hand the other one to a fourth civ you want to generate tension with Russia, who has little chance of defending it. Now Russia has to pass through that territory to get back to the Ottomans, which at a minimum requires Open Borders, but could also result in the Russian alliance dissolving into chaos if Russia decides to invade.

 

[Sturmgewher88mm]

Wait for Russia to wipe them completely out before deciding whether to liberate. At that point if you have the units and they are doing nothing other than sitting around (pplus you think you could win the fight), it could be worth it. On the other hand it may just make turn times take really long.

Russia would be unlikely to declare war on the liberated civ a second time, in my experience. The biggest reason to revive and liberate in this situation, IMO, is to friend the revived civ, forward cash to them, and get an extra Research Agreement out of the deal.

BTW a really underhanded thing to do would be to take two cities, but only give the Ottomans ONE city back. Hand the other one to a fourth civ you want to generate tension with Russia, who has little chance of defending it. Now Russia has to pass through that territory to get back to the Ottomans, which at a minimum requires Open Borders, but could also result in the Russian alliance dissolving into chaos if Russia decides to invade.

Wow, that's a pretty awesome tactic

 

[GhostSalsa]

friend the revived civ, forward cash to them, and get an extra Research Agreement out of the deal.

RA yields for both civs scale to whichever civ makes less science in BNW. This is in addition to you having to pay more for the unproductive RA in question due to probably being eras ahead. A revived civ has no citizens and no buildings and is making almost nothing. You might as well start gifting them your cities to raise their science if you're going to try to draw from an empty well. ie, probably don't do that.

 

[isau]

RA yields for both civs scale to whichever civ makes less science in BNW. This is in addition to you having to pay more for the unproductive RA in question due to probably being eras ahead. A revived civ has no citizens and no buildings and is making almost nothing. You might as well start gifting them your cities to raise their science if you're going to try to draw from an empty well. ie, probably don't do that.

Oops. Well that part is news to me. Still, maybe worth resurrecting another civ just to vex a rival.

 

[Browd]

See this thread for the post-patch RA changes: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=514438

 

[Barghaest]

Only if you are aiming for Diplo Victory.

Actually, even if not going for DV, it's often worth saving a civ that shares your ideology to keep the other ideologies from repealing your World Ideology or hammering through their own... (same goes for religions, try to keep non-founders on your side to avoid another religion becoming the World Religion).

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

Also, their tourism influence on you will offset order civs with tourism influence over you. Oh, don't forget the economic union policy.

 

[GhostSalsa]

The Ottomans won't have any of their works. They can't generate tourism without works. They will be under even more Order pressure than before conquest and they themselves will be very likely to flip to Order if you are not the tourism leader.

Again, there's exponentially more strategic value from the culture/tourism perspective in conquering a strong opponent than reviving or sustaining a weak ally.

Strong ideology allies are good. Weak ones are just your helpless babies.

Edit: actually, wow, I just played through this same problem in a game today as the Maya. I and one friend, Poland, were Order. Three civs were Autocracy including the tourism leader, Egypt. I was able to get my civ to content status but wasn't able to keep Poland in positive happiness no matter what I did.

Until I conquered Egypt and stole all their works.

Suddenly, my ally Poland is content and one of the remaining two Autocracy civs is in resistance.

 

[phillipwyllie]

Single city empires tend not to flip regardless the influence delta. In some of my OCC "lets cheat with science" games I totally ignore tourism, but I'm always in positive happiness.
To answer the OP: If you can pump out units quickly then liberate and keep on gifting the Ottomans units until he runs out of supply(the unit will disband when you gift). When he's able to defend himself(or even attack effectively) then you can join in. XCOM squad units are very good for this as you can para-drop the unit where it's needed the most. You'll have to gift him some gpt though.

 

[_GreenRaider_]

Ended up getting nuked 3 times and had 4 other civs jump in the fight against me during the Liberation war, really the Ottomans were worthless to revive, but the more valuable city I puppeted instead of liberating because it had Uranium which I had none in my 7 cities, so really in my instance it was only good for obtaining resources that I would otherwise have to trade with my enemy (Rome) to get, thanks for the replies and tips everyone!

 

[redwings1340]

Ended up getting nuked 3 times and had 4 other civs jump in the fight against me during the Liberation war, really the Ottomans were worthless to revive, but the more valuable city I puppeted instead of liberating because it had Uranium which I had none in my 7 cities, so really in my instance it was only good for obtaining resources that I would otherwise have to trade with my enemy (Rome) to get, thanks for the replies and tips everyone!

Oops, sorry. I figured if you were third in military strength you had the power to absolutely crush any AIs. Didn't think about nukes, or the possibility that Russia may have been well liked in the world. I figured any overexpansionist Russia would be universally hated.

 

[_GreenRaider_]

Oops, sorry. I figured if you were third in military strength you had the power to absolutely crush any AIs. Didn't think about nukes, or the possibility that Russia may have been well liked in the world. I figured any overexpansionist Russia would be universally hated.

Yeah I thought so too, but most of the relationships were made during the war for some reason... Oh well haha