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Is rationalism much better than piety?
- Thread starter zyx
- Start date
Kouvb593kdnuewnd
Left Forever
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
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- 4,146
Rationalism is good for teching and thats basicly it.
Piety is good for faith and culture and thas basicly it.
You can win with any of them or without both and which got the advantage depends.
Piety increases your chance to have a culture win and it helps in making your religion stronger while rationalism will help your tech rate.
Piety is good for faith and culture and thas basicly it.
You can win with any of them or without both and which got the advantage depends.
Piety increases your chance to have a culture win and it helps in making your religion stronger while rationalism will help your tech rate.
Like Denkt said, you can choose one or the other depending on what you want, they don't really step on each other for the same VC goals. I sometimes go Liberty -> Tradition -> Commerce -> One of 3 final cultural trees.
I never choose piety unless I'm going for a cultural victory. By 300 turns, I have usually everything I need (3 full trees, or 2 full trees and 2 halves). Getting piety last is pointless. Getting it asap will severely delay my 2nd and 3rd tree. It gives you a much earlier 4th and 5th but that's not needed for a domination/science victory. Unless you're going for some weird liberty + honor + piety + commerce + order for super wide very-late game domination.
But I think rationalism is a must vs Diety/Immortal for science/domination victory. At least that's the only way I can be ahead in the mid and later game for Immortal.
I never choose piety unless I'm going for a cultural victory. By 300 turns, I have usually everything I need (3 full trees, or 2 full trees and 2 halves). Getting piety last is pointless. Getting it asap will severely delay my 2nd and 3rd tree. It gives you a much earlier 4th and 5th but that's not needed for a domination/science victory. Unless you're going for some weird liberty + honor + piety + commerce + order for super wide very-late game domination.
But I think rationalism is a must vs Diety/Immortal for science/domination victory. At least that's the only way I can be ahead in the mid and later game for Immortal.
chazzycat
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2010
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- 3,085
piety can definitely be powerful in the right circumstance, but I feel that rationalism is generally more useful. It depends a lot on your beliefs...if you have beliefs that incentive spreading your religion to the AI then you want to get more prophets/missionaries and piety will help you spread faster.
however buying GS with faith is almost universally helpful, and its easier to win via science than via faith.
however buying GS with faith is almost universally helpful, and its easier to win via science than via faith.
Bibor
Doomsday Machine
It really depends. There are "other sources" for everything. Including tech boosts and great scientists.
IgnatiusTBarfat
Puppet Master
It is like voting on initiatives where you have to vote no to mean that you want something.
Anyway, even with the piety mild nerf, I still take it for a CV, though I'm sometimes thinking that might not be awesome, everything else I juggle and end up using rationalism.
With the change in G&K being able to buy 2-4 GS with faith when rationalism is unlocked, the question is: is rationalism much better than piety?
which is to be discussed
And the poll question I wanted to know: who still chooses piety when not going for cultural victory?
So yes, 2 questions, but I think they belong together so 1 thread.
The questions suggest that scientists are the only reason to take it. This is wrong imo. I take it for the big boosts to science rate and specialists, not to mention the two free technologies.
I think the reason is is so popular might be that it works for more than one VC. Piety is good for cultural but not really anything else. Sure it provides happiness, but good empire management will do that for you anyway. On the other hand the rationalism tree helps you with science and domination victories, and can also help you get to the UN for the diplo win as well...
Admittedly you can "manage an empire" better to have more science. But you can't manage an empire better to randomly spit out two free technologies...
I think the reason is is so popular might be that it works for more than one VC. Piety is good for cultural but not really anything else. Sure it provides happiness, but good empire management will do that for you anyway. On the other hand the rationalism tree helps you with science and domination victories, and can also help you get to the UN for the diplo win as well...
Admittedly you can "manage an empire" better to have more science. But you can't manage an empire better to randomly spit out two free technologies...
Lexicus
Deity
I pick rationalism for the happiness and the science. The great person purchasing with faith is just an added bonus.
EDaddy
Warlord
I go rationalism of course! It is my favorite policy branch! 
Personally I'm not massive on buying things with faith anyway. You'll only ever have a certain amount of faith, and the costs of great people by faith increase so massively... Taking pantheons or beliefs, or even social policies based on "which great person it gives you" is a poor way to do things... those benefits take ages to arrive, and if you use the GP for anything other than settling, their benefit might vanish instantly.
Compare this with say fertility rites, or a combat belief... those benefits will last forever, will be applicable forever, and do not take faith. At the end of the day there's no religious victory, for conevrting 75% of the world... so religion is handy, but not really all that important to victory. As such choosing piety because it "helps" your religion, probably isn't a good idea...
Compare this with say fertility rites, or a combat belief... those benefits will last forever, will be applicable forever, and do not take faith. At the end of the day there's no religious victory, for conevrting 75% of the world... so religion is handy, but not really all that important to victory. As such choosing piety because it "helps" your religion, probably isn't a good idea...
Slvynn
Duke Vector fon Pixel
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- Apr 3, 2005
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- 2,073
Try playing Byzantium at deity and you`ll find that Piety have its uses and cant be replaced. Yes its much less usefull if we talk about times and circumstances its worth to take it over ratio, but its not useless, if you dont used it this does not mean that there are no circumstances to choose it. Simpliest examples are Religion addicted civ or strat on hi lvl , culture games, games with science victory disabled, mp games which deicided pre renaiisance with some kind of just war and gp abuse, games where conquest winner use religion to boost him and does not need the edge in tech to finish game faster. As byzantium you will find Piety mandatory on hi lvls bc they need more fpt to win religion race with fpt generating civs like Celts or Ethiopia since they do get huge buff from it.
Slvynn
Duke Vector fon Pixel
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I disagree about GP settling. I use as byzantium piety on deity and wide conquest mode with Just war and cheaper GPs... GP is my secong general... combined with honor i approach enemy city with GP, convert, and smash it with honor + gg + just war bonuses. Honor and Piety, no Liberty and no Rationalism.
Kouvb593kdnuewnd
Left Forever
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
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- 4,146
With piety you will most likely have a stronger religion because more faith = more missonaries and more GP's which = stronger religion. Stronger religion = stronger founding bonus and CS influence with you do not decline as fast. Other religious civs will probably hate you if you convert them but converting them make you stronger and them weaker and the civs who do not have a religion will probably like you. Piety also gives you more culture then you got a wonder and make policies cheaper. I haven't caculated but these polcies may mabe give you more policies. Madandate of heven works nicely with a religion which gives happines. Piety is not weak, you only need to use its strength in faith and culture and it may in many games be superior to rationalism. Piety is not only for culture victory like rationalism is not only for science victory. Both help with all types of victory but rationalism may seam more obvious but piety with strong religion and more policies may help as much as rationalism.
Xile
Chieftain
No matter how much I neglect my faith, I still get at the very least 1 scientist(usually 2) and that's a lot of beakers, esp, if you wait for your bpt to get to 1k or so before bulbing. At least in my eyes, those 2 scientists alone are worth more than the whole piety tree, unless going for CV.
"Strong" religion implies getting to pick decent beliefs, which really depends on what the AIs pick. Rationalism though, is useful regardless of the choices made by AIs. Unless playing for CV or someone with a good UU in machinery/chivalry, I almost always rush into renaissance before being forced to "waste" a policy after finishing either liberty or tradition. Then I just take the left side of rationalism + communism line in order, though finishing rationalism when going for science might win you the game slightly faster.
So yeah, rationalism all the way.
"Strong" religion implies getting to pick decent beliefs, which really depends on what the AIs pick. Rationalism though, is useful regardless of the choices made by AIs. Unless playing for CV or someone with a good UU in machinery/chivalry, I almost always rush into renaissance before being forced to "waste" a policy after finishing either liberty or tradition. Then I just take the left side of rationalism + communism line in order, though finishing rationalism when going for science might win you the game slightly faster.
So yeah, rationalism all the way.
Spamming cities without a break plus Liberty plus Piety/Organized Religion plus Pagoda spam = we have a winner.
Religion can give you crazy amounts of happiness and 15 cities with Order and factories will generate more science than 4-6 cities with Rationalism.
Both ways are possible and both can be optimal. It depends on the civ and the map, of course.
Religion can give you crazy amounts of happiness and 15 cities with Order and factories will generate more science than 4-6 cities with Rationalism.
Both ways are possible and both can be optimal. It depends on the civ and the map, of course.
Minor Annoyance
Deity
Get rationalism unless you have a specific reason to want piety, like you want more faith or culture. Don't get it just because it's there. Not every game uses a lot of culture or faith. Every game uses science.
