Is salt OP?
- Thread starter Ritzy Cat
- Start date
Actually it's quite the contrary, production is king. Producing things such as settlers, workers, granaries, watermills, food caravans and happiness buildings faster will lead to faster overall growth of your empire than working low production growth tiles which delay all of these things from coming online.
Working growth tiles will give you good short term growth for that one particular city but working productive tiles will allow you to expand and grow your entire empire more quickly.
Also, a good player will not be working unimproved tiles. They will have enough workers to be on pace with their growth and improve the exact tiles being worked as well as those they intend to work upon the next pop growth. I would much rather work a bunch of farmed plains (2 food, 1 hammer) than a bunch of farmed grassland (3 food, 0 hammer). You will produce a whole lot of nothing this way.
I used to think that working food tiles was the most important thing but hammers are actually far better. This is because many of the things which you produce lead to more food, growth and productivity.
Having one salt in itself is not OP per se but the problem is that salt tends to come in bunches. Having 3 - 4 salt in your empire definitely is OP.
What does Minecraft have to do with anything? You jumped into the thread completely off topic with some common knowledge history lesson. We are talking about actual game designs that effect fair play.
The history lesson is 100% irrelevant to the game working and having proper mechanics.
This is what's wrong with the Civ Forum. 90% of it is completely useless garbage that is either not relevant to the topic or actually straight up incorrect because kids with only 500 hours of experience think that they know stuff about the game.
notyourtypical
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2013
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It not so much that salt is OP, but how laughably UP Calendar and Trapping luxuries are. Mining and Sailing luxuries are fine. You could rebalance by boosting the low or bringing down the high. Either Calendar luxuries should give 3 gold immediately with 1 food at Fertilizer and 1 extra gold at Economics, and Trapping should be 3 gold immediately with an extra 2 at economics. Except wine, which should be 1 food 1 gold to start. Gold really isn't 1:1 equivalent to food or hammers. Or mined salt should give either 1 food 1 gold or 1 hammer 1 gold. Then it's a reasonable 3-1-2 or 2-2-2 on plains.
And incense on desert should be 4 gold unimproved, because incense on desert is terrible. Almost as bad as salt on desert.
And incense on desert should be 4 gold unimproved, because incense on desert is terrible. Almost as bad as salt on desert.
LyricalAssassin
Warlord
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- May 17, 2010
- Messages
- 107
True, if the mechanics of a game are broken, the game loses some of its value. However, the same could be said about a game's concepts not matching up with the lore presented. Civ is, first and foremost, a game about history. Sid even said it himself!
Let's not bicker and argue over someone trying to give an explanation to how a mechanic works. Sure its just speculation, but the game's own designers use the same "useless garbage" to explain why certain things are or aren't in the game. Speculation can be fun too! 
........you do realize that Securion has over 1700 hours on Deity alone? He knows the game a hell of a lot better than you ever will, and makes his point without acting like a toddler that can type. Plus, having heard Djinn's opinion on OP starts, I think I'll agree with the two of them ahead of an over-aggressive bastun salach like you (Happy Paddy's Day from an Irishman)
And considering he's married, I REALLY hope he isn't a 'kid'.
Incidentally,
>
Moderator Action: No name calling please, even in Gaelic. Also, a reminder that this is an English language site, so a translation would have been required, if the remark had been permitted in the first place.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
budweiser
King of the Beers
I've just been thinking, if I have salt, then I want mining first and then a worker first and then I will get 3f + 2h and gold from one pop point.
However, what if I had no salt but went mining first anyway and worked a grass farm (or a cow) and a hill at pop 2? Maybe I even got an extra pop point from a ruin. Wouldn't I come close to the same effect as salt?
I don't have time to try right now, but I might later.
However, what if I had no salt but went mining first anyway and worked a grass farm (or a cow) and a hill at pop 2? Maybe I even got an extra pop point from a ruin. Wouldn't I come close to the same effect as salt?
I don't have time to try right now, but I might later.
Memoryjar
Emperor
Yes, it is. Because you need fertilizer for +1 food on a plantation, even it's a riverside plantation.
So pre T100 3f + 2h and gold is really good.
So pre T100 3f + 2h and gold is really good.
Syailendra
Prince
don't you people realize that the randomness of your starting point, is the reason we put thousands of hours into this game?
Had the game give a similar experience every time i start it, i must have abandoned this series decades ago.
OP and UP start is good!
Had the game give a similar experience every time i start it, i must have abandoned this series decades ago.
OP and UP start is good!
Dr. D
Warlord
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- Dec 6, 2012
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What's wrong with any forum is when the arrogance of some leads them to shoot others down for a simple remark which didn't otherwise detract from the overall discussion. I guarantee you that your assumption of how "common knowledge" the salary comment was is quite overstated. Chill a bit... you'll catch more bees with honey than vinegar, you know.
........you do realize that Securion has over 1700 hours on Deity alone? He knows the game a hell of a lot better than you ever will, and makes his point without acting like a toddler that can type. Plus, having heard Djinn's opinion on OP starts, I think I'll agree with the two of them ahead of an over-aggressive bastun salach like you (Happy Paddy's Day from an Irishman)
And considering he's married, I REALLY hope he isn't a 'kid'.
Incidentally,
Moderator Action: No name calling please, even in Gaelic. Also, a reminder that this is an English language site, so a translation would have been required, if the remark had been permitted in the first place.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
First off, I never said he was actually one of the kids with 500 hours. I can clearly see he is 40 years old at the bottom of every post. I said that was a problem in addition to the problem he was creating which is irrelevant spam all over every thread.
Secondly, I highly doubt beating up on a fully ******** AI for 1700 hours is better than my experience against actual human beings who can think and reason. Although I was not questioning his experience or ability. I only said he was spamming the thread.
Also, I find it annoying when people justify imbalances in the game with history. Why should the game be imbalanced and unfair?
Moderator Action: Accusing others of spamming a thread is itself spam, if not trolling -- if you have a problem with a post, just report it. I would ask everyone to drop this line of discussion and return to discussing the overpowering pleasures of a high-salt (in-game) diet.
chazzycat
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2010
- Messages
- 3,085
sure you could get the same hammers but would have no growth and no gold
also because salt tends to clump so much, if you have one it's likely you have 2 or 3. after working 2 or 3 improved salts, you are in a really good position compared to normal tiles (and most resource tiles as well).
notyourtypical
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2013
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- 119
This is how powerful salt is: A 3 pop city on a hill with 3 workable salt, all improved is 11 food (5 towards growth), 8 hammers and 5 gold. To get the same output on a grassland with a river you'd need 4 population. With three you'll be at -1 food. And you're out 3 gold. And even with the 4 population city you lack the gold, and you have no growth.
Securion
Civ Veteran
If you dont want history, then another game is without doubts better for you. ANY game really.
Actually EVERYTHING in this game is based on history. Even the game mechanics.
And if you knew history, you would easily know why Salt is so powerful in this game (and not Dye, for an example...).
Im neither a kid (im 42 years old) nor inexperienced with Civ (played every Civ game more than 2500 hours).
Im not saying Salt is NOT better than anything else, im just telling you WHY that might be from a historical perspective.
Edit; As the moderator said, lets drop it. Peace bro.
If you dont want history, then another game is without doubts better for you. ANY game really.
Actually EVERYTHING in this game is based on history. Even the game mechanics.
And if you knew history, you would easily know why Salt is so powerful in this game (and not Dye, for an example...).
Im neither a kid (im 42 years old) nor inexperienced with Civ (played every Civ game more than 2500 hours).
Im not saying Salt is NOT better than anything else, im just telling you WHY that might be from a historical perspective.
Edit; As the moderator said, lets drop it. Peace bro.
Yes, I know that salt was incredibly important in the past and that is the reason for it's superior attributes in the game. My point was that it is a game and it needs to work and be fair.
I would like to clear up that I did not mean you were one of the kids with no experience. I was stating they were an additional problem on this forum. I can see in every post you make that you are 40+. It says that in your signature.
There's no argument that some luxuries are better than others. The worst are the plantation luxuries; spices & dyes that are on jungles requiring Calender and Bronze working and a enormous number of turns for workers to improve.
Spices and Sugar should get a food bonus & dyes really needs a building or something that at least makes up for its uselessness
Salt is definitely king (if they wanted to achieve balance they should remove the +1 production from the mine & swap it for gold)
For realism Copper should have +1 gold swapped to +1 hammer from the mine.
Spices and Sugar should get a food bonus & dyes really needs a building or something that at least makes up for its uselessness
Salt is definitely king (if they wanted to achieve balance they should remove the +1 production from the mine & swap it for gold)
For realism Copper should have +1 gold swapped to +1 hammer from the mine.
LoneRebel
Emperor
I've been wondering whether both Copper and Marble should provide production instead of gold. What do you guys think? I'm okay with either. I think the idea was that luxuries are supposed to mostly provide gold, anyway. Production comes from strategic and bonus resources.
Of course, Marble already has that 15% wonder bonus. That is Marble's unique benefit.
Of course, Marble already has that 15% wonder bonus. That is Marble's unique benefit.
I was thinking the same for marble but then remember it also gets a production bonus from the stoneworks.
Despite salt's historical significance, I do think it needs to be toned down. I wouldn't really consider it a "luxury resource", maybe a "special one" like deer or stone.
Or possibly not come in veins of 3 or greater.
A capital that is simply lucky enough to start in salt is not fun to play against when they have tons of growth and hammers.
Or possibly not come in veins of 3 or greater.
A capital that is simply lucky enough to start in salt is not fun to play against when they have tons of growth and hammers.
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