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Is salt OP?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Ritzy Cat, Mar 18, 2014.

  1. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

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    I prefer a good land overall than a super spot with some salts and nothing else around. Do they are OP? It depends. If 1 or 2 of them are available only with no riversided tiles...nope...not at all.

    Alone it's pretty powerful but mixed on a bad land it's still a bad land.
     
  2. HeraldtheGreat

    HeraldtheGreat King

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    That's one reason why I'm fond of playing Sweden; they always seem to start near salt.
     
  3. Doktor Vic Tim

    Doktor Vic Tim King

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    Finally that Tundra start bias works in their favour! :D

    And as bad as tundra bias can be, plains tend to be close to tundra most of the time anyway.

    OT: Yes, salt is quite powerful, and unique since improving it to a mine not only gives a +1 production, it also gives +1 food. If only other Luxuries had a little unique yield mechanic when improved, but that's just Power Creep wishing on my side.
     
  4. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    yeah, they give a unique huge early boost that's well balanced. My salt cities always seem to get an extra ancient wonder or two without sacrificing growth. and it's nice that you only need mining. 10 turns in and you can already start improving them. No need to wait for camps or plantations. :)
     
  5. Hpuk

    Hpuk Warlord

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    Yes, to the point where I just restart if I get it near my cap.
     
  6. Syailendra

    Syailendra Prince

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    why not try a honor or piety games instead? Sometimes i'm amazed by how people clamoring that piety is unplayable while some of them restarting on a salt start.
     
  7. CraziFuzzy

    CraziFuzzy Warlord

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    I also feel Salt is OP.

    My ideal fix for salt:
    Salt adds +1 food and +1 coin. (unchanged)
    Salt Mine provides +1 Food. (remove the +1 hammer bonus)
    Salt resource provides +15% bonus to building ancient and classical era units (including settlers).
     
  8. Rhaegar7

    Rhaegar7 Chieftain

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    There are other ways to balance it, besides nerfing it.
     
  9. CraziFuzzy

    CraziFuzzy Warlord

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    I don't think my idea was that much of a nerf. Just a refocusing. the 15% production bonus to units nearly offsets the -1 production, while helping to mitigate the 'I have 3 salts in capital, so i get every early wonder' problem. By making it a resource based modifier, similar to marble's wonder modifier, it is the same production benefit whether you have 1 salt, or 4. This combats the vein related problems with salt.
     
  10. Rhaegar7

    Rhaegar7 Chieftain

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    Wasn't directed to you, sorry. I had just read the first page and thought it was the whole topic. That seems like a nice idea, actually. :)
     
  11. Blitz Spearman

    Blitz Spearman Warlord

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    I agree with the people saying that Salt is powerful but it balances bad land. Plains are crap because you desperately need Wheat or Salt tiles to be able to do anything early game.
    With grasslands, if you have any Cattle, Stone, Marble, Copper, Iron, Horses or even a couple of Hills, you are already good to go.
    Also, the worst possible luxury is not dye. It is incense in the desert: 2 gold unimproved, 3 gold improved, no food nor hammers. Tundra furs without forest is a close second.
     
  12. CraziFuzzy

    CraziFuzzy Warlord

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    Incense's relative weakness is greatly offset by it's religious uses. Goddess of festivals adds +1 culture and +1 faith to incense and wine resources. Build a monastery and that doubles.
     
  13. CossackProblem

    CossackProblem Warlord

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    Salt is powerful, but not OP. The problem comes from it too frequently arriving in bunches on fertile land.
     
  14. KmDubya

    KmDubya King

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    All resources come in bunches, salt is not unique in this.

    The power of salt is the combination of food and hammers that allows your city to both grow and to produce at a high rate. Everything else has a trade off, the other mining resources - gold, silver, copper - sacrifice food for gold and hammers. Citrus gets you food and gold but no hammers and needs to have jungle cleared. The other calendar resources usually get you gold but not enough food to feed itself, let alone give a surplus.

    Even if salt only provided two food it would still feed itself, at three food it is hands down the best. If it was changed to a bonus resource like stone it would be better, take away the happy.
     
  15. Barathor

    Barathor Emperor

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    I have a simple mod if anybody is interested:
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=173971334

    And also an alternate version if you prefer different yields:
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=175409871

    I believe the default game's salt is a bit too much as well. Getting 2 bonus yields from improving a tile is a lot early in the game; especially when the bonus is extra food and production. When it becomes a regional luxury within a game, it can cluster very easily for a civ which makes all that extra food and production even more powerful since they're "local" yield types which greatly affect the city they're near, instead of other yields which are more global, like gold or culture.

    Also, it doesn't only come on bad tiles. In fact, flat plains are its primary choice of terrain (and I wouldn't call plains bad), followed by flat desert, then flat tundra (with or without a forest), and then finally any tiles with forests (so that means it can be found on grass too).

    I could certainly be wrong, but I believe the yield total for salt was a bit of an oversight during development. In the code, there are two ways an improved resource receives its bonus yield: either it's tied to the improvement or it's tied to the resource.

    Improvements like mines and farms are not only built on resources, but normal tiles too, so their bonus is tied to the improvement itself. Other improvements like plantations or fishing boats are always built on resources, so their bonus is tied to the resource type. Salt receives both of them: 1 production from the mine itself and 1 food for improving the salt resource.

    The mod above removes the +1 production from the mine and gives it only a bonus of +1 food when improved, so it totals 2F1G when improved (similar to crab).

    The alternate mod changes the +1 food to +1 production with the mine instead, for a total of 1F1P1G, if you prefer more consistency with your mine improvements. Though, keep in mind, other improvements already have inconsistencies, such as pastures which give +1F to sheep and cattle, but +1P to horses, for example.
     
  16. topresch

    topresch Warlord

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    I agree that it was a major resource in antiquity, but according to QI, Roman soldiers were in fact not paid in salt - although it was a precious commodity they used their salary on, probably providing that link to the meaning of that word :)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-filter/qi/7817138/QI-Quite-Interesting-facts-about-salt.html
     
  17. Tyrvos

    Tyrvos Cu Chulainn

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    Well, spice is clearly the best luxury, it allows space travel and you can make melange from it. Hail Arrakis.
     
  18. topresch

    topresch Warlord

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    If you can't ride the Shai-Hulud - nuke 'em.
     
  19. megabearsfan

    megabearsfan Prince

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    Shameless self-promotion time: I have a mod that slightly nerfs salt by moving its +1 food to require a Granary (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=145306648). Personally, I think it makes sense for Salt to get the +1 food from Granary, since salt is used for preserving and storing food (like, you know, in a granary).

    I don't think Salt in general is OP. I only think it's OP when it appears in clusters near a player's capital start location. I usually see Salt in areas that are weak in food (like deserts), and so it's an excellent balancing factor for how crappy deserts are.
     
  20. fbruun

    fbruun Chieftain

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    Sure, salt gives you a a nice cap - but you still need 3-4 more good cities. I don't think it's OP.
     

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