Is the SGA Really Broken?

r16

not deity
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
Messages
12,139
to Snarkhunter

it is always nice to meet a PG player . The scenario ı was mentioning is the opening one of French Generals that you can find at

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/pgfanatics/ . I have all of the 6 completed packs and ı have enjoyed them all .

to vmxa

ı was of the opinion that my copy of Civ is somewhat non standart and seeing the undoubted and ,let me underline it , unchallenged expert opinion ı am more confident that it is indeed the case . As ı had already had a save that induced SGA at home and that had not showed up here ı had these two saves where the first one is the last turn of the age and the AI would not , in my opinion , allow the player to start a new age before the last one ended . The age ends and the second turn ,ı can start another . Let's say the SGL was a gift to add some weight to my claim of having ages ; which unfortunately might well become the UFO thingy of this forum .

and as Turner had already mentioned development elsewhere might increase scientific output so practically all cities are at wealth to keep the situation level . ı love the entertainers , they save me from building policing forces which don't cost a thing at monarchy but still waste turns that would be better used at building anything from libraries to factories and they improve overall game results , ı can't get domination victories unless people love me .For other aims , later in the game where the luxuries start to factor in all the entertainers will become taxmen .

the tech slider was at the lowest level to stress the point that the end of science age would cause a drop in scientific output which in my case meant the 25 turns remaining at save 1 would show as not 24 but 29 in test 2 . A boosted science effort giving 25 turns should be 30 without the SGA . At home it happens to me . And ı love this particular game where ı play it for keeps at home ; ı have landed on North America , killed the Mongols and airlifting tanks to attack Korean rifleman and cavalry , about to start the operation in a few turns , they are barely building railroads . Will win this one .

so unless Firaxis killed SGA , maybe because it interfered with some other aspect and ı have some illegal copy dating before that decision ( might hurt me but since there is already a long list of grievances against me , ı don't care much about it and ı won't complain as the game was an award , to say the least ) ı have one freak Civ . But ı can't obviously make it visible .

what follows is an obligation for me so please accept my pardon .

ı am a known liar and a cheat .

at this particular forum where ı "serve" ı was banned for a week . ı was happy that my March 24 , 2008 post saying "let's play" was no longer valid and ı was booted out .Nobody would miss r16 the loudmouth ,especially r16 himself . It turned out to be only temporary to my groans of "Please God , not another year " and since ı am qualified at getting kicked out of forums ı have been specifically told to behave somewhat ; the present challenge is to stay in .Which means ı have to eat my word and rant here . Over there where this post rightfully belongs ı would be reported to the moderator immediately , and get banished again . - As nobody is ever asking me on what ı think and they don't care when they ask out of politeness , this is the way to go . - ı have long been accused of carrying my personal troubles onto the net , crying about how people laugh at me on the streets ,mock me etc etc . But talking on the web achieves practically nothing . In contrast , the old methods are already shown to be effective and will be available , trust me , but as ı said nobody is asking me . Yessir , ı told you so , sir ... We are not in the habit of retracting statements , the patience is wearing thin and of course there is enough power out there to make us say uncle .

chanting about lovely North Korea , ranting about item 14 of basic principles of defence by "Boots" Blesse ,claiming the accidental discovery of electrically conducting plastics by a Asian student in USA was not accidental as "his notes were tampered with " or " the true meaning of the race is not to the swift , nor the battle to the strong , but that's the way to bet ( by Ring Lardner ) is not really understood but it is 101 over here" is what ı do , in a real annoying way and being halfway honest ı really work hard not to be taken seriously .

it is like a race where the leaders look back at the idiots who keep the distance to remain definitely at the back but the oldtimers watching from the stands know the fools started early and are actually ahead ...

the oldguard would understand why ı , r16 of all people , would claim a science age while it is common knowledge that it doesn't work .

and trust me that they would believe me .

with apologies to Civfanatics community . ı won't repeat such out of context ranting if ı can help it . ı am here for the game .
 
r16 I am not sure I followed all of that, but in any event all I can do is offer my perspective.
 
r16, I was not able to really follow your points. First the saves will not load in CAII, but will load in C3C. Second I was not able to trigger the SGA on Test1 save on the first turn.

I could on the next one, but it did nothing much. To make it easier to test, I switched to a new tech, so no beakers applied. The set the rate to 8 turns. Then tripped the SGA and it drop the display by one turn.

I did not want to play forward, but I have done it before and it will not finish the tech sooner, it will be unaffected.

I am not sure what you are tryi9ng to accomplish in that game, but wealth in nearly every city? Many entertainers? Research at 10%? You could get the current tech in 4 turns by upping the slider.

You could then use the SGL to rush a wonder. You are not building HE, MA, Pentagon or Sipahi?

Anyway the SGA does not work and it has been proven many times. It has been acknowledge by Firaxis.

. . . .
to vmxa

ı was of the opinion that my copy of Civ is somewhat non standart and seeing the undoubted and ,let me underline it , unchallenged expert opinion ı am more confident that it is indeed the case . As ı had already had a save that induced SGA at home and that had not showed up here ı had these two saves where the first one is the last turn of the age and the AI would not , in my opinion , allow the player to start a new age before the last one ended . The age ends and the second turn ,ı can start another . Let's say the SGL was a gift to add some weight to my claim of having ages ; which unfortunately might well become the UFO thingy of this forum . . . .
r16, you seem quite convinced that your SGAs are working, so I decided to pull your saves this weekend and test it. Frankly, I'd love to see a working SGA in action. Anyway, you may well have a non-standard version of Civ, which I say because I could not get CA2 to load them. They did load in C3C, though. Unlike vmxa, I did play forward, because that was the only way to see if your SGA really did work on my computer.

The short story of my tests: the SGA does not appear to have worked for me.
The long story:
  1. I reset research to Printing Press to dump all the beakers already invested in Physics, then reset to Physics to start with a clean slate.
  2. I swapped all builds to wealth to make sure that nothing completed that would change the budget during the SGA.
  3. I went through the cites and ensured that you didn't have any scientists.
  4. I set research to Physics at (IIRC) 30%, which showed it would complete in 19 turns as of 1290 AD. I wanted the entire research time to finish within the SGA period.
  5. On the second turn (1295 AD), research time jumped to 23 turns. Was this the end of another SGA that you'd started?
  6. I started an SGA in 1295 AD, with research dropping to 18 turns.
  7. Research on Physics completed on the IBT between 1400 AD and 1405 AD, 21 turns later.
  8. The SGA ended as soon as Physics completed.

Of particular note:
  • 1295 & 1300 AD both showed 18 turns until completion.
  • 1320 & 1325 AD both showed 14 turns until completion.
  • 1350 & 1355 both showed 9 turns until completion (but it should also be noted that I had a culture flip between these two)
  • 1380 &1385 both showed 4 turns until completion

So, if we assume that the culture flip above actually did add a turn to research time, I've still got 3 extra turns of research added in. I did not monitor city growth, but I think that's a better explanation for the 2 turn difference between the non-SGA projection (23 turns) and the end result (21 turns) better than a functioning SGA, under which 18 turns was the projected research time.
 
I think cognitive bias is pretty common when playing a game with as much complexity as this. I know I'm guilty of it. It is very difficult, nay, practically impossible to eliminate it completely.
 
It is C3C specific: SGA is Scientific Golden Age, which was supposed to provide 20 turns of increased scientific output. This option was never properly implemented, and the increase does not actually occur.
 
Really, it never worked?
 
at an earlier save ı had here ı had one leader and ı had used it to start an age if ı may say so .As appearently it didn't show the results that ı claim to see ı tried it again and the 1290 save is the last turn of a SGA . The leader who is always named Zekeriya (but the Military leaders change names )appeared when ı discovered Education during SGA . The fact that it was not able start an age but in the next turn after the lady that announces ages declared that we no longer had the boost , ı was able to use it to restart .

ı think the operative word here is "my computer " . ı will go on believing what ı feel to be actual truth in a particular computer case somewhere in Turkey , where the things are still standing . So all ı can do is offer my thanks to anyone who has gone through this .

which of course still doesn't mean ı am right and everybody else is wrong . ı just play the thing and may well lack the "sense" to see the mistake in my argument . I am only confident that is indeed how it turns out for me .
 
Alright, well, try this. Next time you get a SGL and try to do a SGA, make a save point before starting it. Don't rely on the autosaves, because those get deleted. Keep careful track of the number of turns left. Note each turn how many turns are left. After the SGA is over, go back and do it again, without starting the SGA. I think you'll notice that it does appear to work, but under scrutiny it falls apart.

If you're not paying close attention it does appear to work. But when you look at it, you see where it's broken.

I find it very hard to believe that you have the only copy on the planet that has a SGA that works. And if there was some kind of hack or something you installed, it doesn't make sense that a small few have it, while so many other people who desperately want it wouldn't be able to find it.

Anyways....just try what I proposed, and see what happens.
 
Regardless of how you perceive it, you cannot get any effect from a SGA period. Look up the beakers in CAII each turn and it is plain to see. The developers acknowledged it is not working. Many many players have proven it does not work.

This was hashed out years ago and is a closed issue. All we are trying got do is to advise you to use the SGL in a more effective way and to be sure any new readers do not accept the SGA as working.

You are free to do as you see fit, but you now have the scoop. Good luck.
 
How do you Moderators develop such patience?......I could use some of that for dealings in Latin America........I.e. Panama! :lol:
 
assuming ı am not lying , and it has to be accepted that on other forums ı sometimes do .


ı tried it as advised .Starting from the test2 , 1295 AD ı had somewhere above ı used the leader and tried to make careful observations . ı arranged the sliders to have %80 science and %10 luxuries . Changed to Music theory . The dates show the turns where ı was able to make a move , ı mean the computer does a lot of things , ı soon as ı am called to make a choice of sciences ı take notice of the year . ı might have missed it unintentionally a few times .

1295 Music theory chosen 4 turns remaining leader used before music theory

1315 Printing 4 turns remaining

1335 Economics 6 turns

1360 or 65 Navigation 6 turns

1390 Democracy 7 turns

1395 Democracy 7 turns (again) confuses me as well

1400 Democracy 8 turns science advisor tells the age is over

*****

1295 Music theory 5 turns no leader

1300 think it was in this turn the end of previous age was announced

1315 Printing 5 turns
ı thought of giving up as it is the same with the one above .

1340 Economics 8 turns

1380 Navigation 8 turns

1400 Navigation 5 turns

1420 Democracy 9 turns

in both cases Dijon rebelled and went back to the French . In the second version Burdigala , one of the Nile cities stopped celebrating the king around 1315 ; didn't notice if it was the same in the first try . City growth should have been an exact match . In both cases ı sold any buildings completed . ı checked only at the end of the second try that ı have 211 science points from a total income of 444 , ı think the corruption was around 137 . Whatever the numbers ı kept everything same , as far as ı can tell .

as ı previously said it is not binding in anyway . It is only natural that ı would have the numbers , any numbers in case of dishonesty . Internet is full of false evidence and there are many who are chest thumping with falsities to boost their self esteem .

once again assuming everything is okey and no trickery involved , would a SGA ,presuming it had been made to work ,show similar results ?

being a geek , an anorak , a nerd ı would like to be special ; it comes with the definition . So it appears to me , at the moment ı am writing this , ı am special . But ı can assure anyone that ı would rather have a job or a woman at home or a couple of millions in the bank . And whatever it is ı didn't do it .
 
Try it again, and this time follow what I suggested. What you're doing, looking at the number of turns at the start of it, doesn't give you an accurate reading of how it doesn't work. You need to go through it, every turn, and watch the turns left.

But whatever, dude. If you've got the only copy that works, more power to you.

Alright, well, try this. Next time you get a SGL and try to do a SGA, make a save point before starting it. Don't rely on the autosaves, because those get deleted. Keep careful track of the number of turns left. Note each turn how many turns are left. After the SGA is over, go back and do it again, without starting the SGA. I think you'll notice that it does appear to work, but under scrutiny it falls apart.

If you're not paying close attention it does appear to work. But when you look at it, you see where it's broken.
 
r16 said:
1295 Music theory chosen 4 turns remaining leader used before music theory

1315 Printing 4 turns remaining

1335 Economics 6 turns

1360 or 65 Navigation 6 turns

1390 Democracy 7 turns

1395 Democracy 7 turns (again) confuses me as well

1400 Democracy 8 turns science advisor tells the age is over

*****

1295 Music theory 5 turns no leader

1300 think it was in this turn the end of previous age was announced

1315 Printing 5 turns
ı thought of giving up as it is the same with the one above .

1340 Economics 8 turns

1380 Navigation 8 turns

1400 Navigation 5 turns

1420 Democracy 9 turns

From your own notes, it's by no means clear that you've "controlled for other variables". In other words, it doesn't seem like you've kept other factors constant. The first trial says
"1295 Music theory chosen 4 turns remaining leader used before music theory

1315 Printing 4 turns remaining" while the second says:
"1295 Music theory 5 turns no leader

1300 think it was in this turn the end of previous age was announced"

Well, how did Music Theory drop from 5 to 4 turns? Techs can drop in turns like that if you have some growth/put in a library/university/science wonder somewhere in the meantime, but that's very rare, and in a test like this you need to explain that.

Also, we'd really like to see saves. Saves for each turn of the scientific golden age would really work best. If you're right r16, then it would appear that the number of turns left on a tech in an SGA IS BROKEN, but the actual number of turns for techs in an SGA is not. This has not gotten established though.
 
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