Is there a counter to the "CS worker steal" exploit?

[michaeltrnka]

Everyone know this exploit. You DOW on a neighboring CS run in and grab a worker and make Peace in the same turn. Sure you anger the CS and if you do it to much you can anger other CS or even get into permanent war with some of them (I'm not sure if G&K still does this), but over all the free worker is a good deal and the consequences are minor.

The exploit is so good and so prevalent that some games have taken to using an honor code to ban this practice, but is that necessary? Personally I don't think so, because there is a counter. It requires you to be close to the offending civ and see or at least know about the seal.

When ever I find out that someone has done the "CS worker steal exploit" I head over to there civ and start stealing their workers. A lot of the time you get the worker stolen from the CS. You can return the worker and you get the friends bonus from the CS. But the worker also has to walk back to the CS so if he gets captured again on the way by opposing player or barbarians you can free him again for even more influence. Most times I end up with a CS ally that will stick with me the entire game.

Just wondering what what the rest of the forum thinks about this. I am I crazy? Is everyone I play noobs and this will never work against top level players? Or is this a genuine counter? If it is a counter do any extra rules need to be but in place to stop this exploit or do players just need to know about and counter the "CS worker steal" more?

 

[tommynt]

well when good players play each other there will fights for these workers yes.

I kinda never steal workers - if i do only from 1 CS.

The problem with your idea is that u d need units all over the place but I did do this steal workers back several times from neightbours - its pretty easy with 2 scouts moving in same time espacially if the other isnt pro.

In fact game d be better played totaly without CS - but then there are players who argue like they want CS cause they add soemthing to gameing experience or whatever - and then they end up stealing workers only ..
Guess some need them to be able to conquer something as they r not good enough to kill real players

 

[Tabarnak]

I hope they will fix the inexistent diplo hit in GnK. This leads to massive cs raping right now without being feared to not be able to ally a cs anymore for the rest of the game.

 

[tommynt]

there is no diplo hit anymore?

Are u sure?
I dont know as I never even try to dow CS more then once ,,,

 

[NQ_carls13]

There is no more permanent war with city states. You can make peace anytime. Even if your attacking cs to conquer it you can still make peace every turn, which means you can take cs with no unit damage. I think this is a bug and needs to be fixed. I don't see it in the upcoming patch though

 

[tommynt]

but pre G+K u got a hit to CS diplo which lets influence drop way faster if u dow more then one CS or one multiple times.

In fact u can/could have choise to steal some workers and kill CS or be able to aly some

 

[Onan]

There is no more permanent war with city states. You can make peace anytime. Even if your attacking cs to conquer it you can still make peace every turn, which means you can take cs with no unit damage. I think this is a bug and needs to be fixed. I don't see it in the upcoming patch though

Wow, really? That sounds like a big step backwards, and an exploit.

 

[tommynt]

fix is easy - play without CS ...

 

[Atlas627]

fix is easy - play without CS ...

That's not a fix, the CS are an important part of the game. Several civs have unique abilities regarding city states, some strategies require heavy use of city states, and an entire social policy branch is devoted to city states!

If you want to get players to agree not to do it, that should work. If you're playing with a jerk, then you will hear that he declared war and peace with a CS, and you can tell everybody else that he broke the rules and hopefully you can get a semi-alliance together.

If you want to allow it but are trying to think of some way to counter it, perhaps stationing a unit or 2 nearby? This isn't a very efficient means of protection though...

 

[RStark]

I think GMR players of the certain game should agree on the rule which forbids to DoW a CS more than one time within 10 turns.
That rule will counter that kind of exploit.

 

[Islandia]

The DoW against the CS even if you make peace will make it so that it is harder to keep the CS allied (influence degrades faster), so it's not completely without repercussions, but yes the early worker is usually worth the first diplomatic hit (nothing really), and usually the second (-20 faction standing with all CS's).

 

[EEE_BOY]

The DoW against the CS even if you make peace will make it so that it is harder to keep the CS allied (influence degrades faster), so it's not completely without repercussions, but yes the early worker is usually worth the first diplomatic hit (nothing really), and usually the second (-20 faction standing with all CS's).

Not -20 to all, second Dow is -20 to 1 or 2 random CS, and more CS become worried about subsequent DoW.

The cost of DoW is the pledge to protect+aesthetics free friends. But 1-2 worried CS is not a big problem.

 

[Islandia]

Not -20 to all, second Dow is -20 to 1 or 2 random CS, and more CS become worried about subsequent DoW.

The cost of DoW is the pledge to protect+aesthetics free friends. But 1-2 worried CS is not a big problem.

Clearly I don't DoW these city states enough then!

 

[EEE_BOY]

Clearly I don't DoW these city states enough then!

Well. The early worker can speed up things so much, the developer make it no panelty, so it is intended for us to capture an early one but no more.

 

[Atlas627]

Well. The early worker can speed up things so much, the developer make it no panelty, so it is intended for us to capture an early one but no more.

Don't know if that makes it intended, it could still easily be a design oversight.

Though honestly they could just make CS actually guard their worker with a unit. If at peace, follow the worker around. If at war, move the worker into the city and switch to war AI.

 

[tommynt]

That's not a fix, the CS are an important part of the game. Several civs have unique abilities regarding city states, some strategies require heavy use of city states, and an entire social policy branch is devoted to city states!

Thats a very very weak argument when the reality is that CS are just there to give free workers and free cities later.

As said I try to avoid this massstealing and rather be lucky with quests but espacialy at higher difficulty lvls played the stealing is just more powerful

Originally Posted by EEE_BOY View Post
Well. The early worker can speed up things so much, the developer make it no panelty, so it is intended for us to capture an early one but no more.
Don't know if that makes it intended, it could still easily be a design oversight.

Though honestly they could just make CS actually guard their worker with a unit. If at peace, follow the worker around. If at war, move the worker into the city and switch to war AI.

well actually as allready 2nd or 3rd dow got some consequences u cant really call it a design problem - espacially when u think about vanilla when these kill x city state came up all time - u could use your 1 "free" dow to kill.

the design problem is that u can make war and peace as often as u want

 

[Atlas627]

Thats a very very weak argument when the reality is that CS are just there to give free workers and free cities later.

Your counterargument is that my argument is weak? Clearly you have your opinion and because mine is not the same it must be a weak argument. You give no proof that your reality is true at all.

If the CS were only there to give free workers and cities, where would the choice be? And no, you can not have universally correct and universally incorrect choices either, that is no choice. What you can have is situational choices, times where one is correct and times where the other is correct. In this way you don't just have to memorize which is the better choice when, you also have to be able to recognize when you are in the scenario that makes one choice or the other better.

Quests will usually be the thing that tips the scales in favor of allying a CS instead of harassing/bullying/conquering. Especially if they are passive quests or ones you were going to do anyway, such as clearing barbarian camps or bullying another CS.

Since not many quests spawn early, it is probably optimal to harass/bully CS until they give you a quest worth pursuing. So yes, CS are excellent for stealing early workers from. But that does not make them "all they are good for".

 

[tommynt]

Since not many quests spawn early, it is probably optimal to harass/bully CS until they give you a quest worth pursuing. So yes, CS are excellent for stealing early workers from. But that does not make them "all they are good for".

so call it - all what majority of people use them -, doesnt change things

 

[Atlas627]

so call it - all what majority of people use them -, doesnt change things

What gives you that impression? And yes, it does change things, if there is an element of choice there then it very much changes things. Removing CS stops this exploit, but removes an important part of the game. That is not a fix, that is a cop-out.

 

[tommynt]

but removes an important part of the game.

CS, apart giving free workers and cities, are just a luck factory