Is there a lack of Native American and African wonders?

[Impaler[WrG]]

I use NotePad++ a GPL general use text editor that supports all 3 of the primary file types used in Civ4 (.cpp .xml .py). Though you may be more interested in an XML focused program

 

[Cannae]

I use NotePad++ a GPL general use text editor that supports all 3 of the primary file types used in Civ4 (.cpp .xml .py). Though you may be more interested in an XML focused program

Yes I am more interseted in a XML focesed program that is not notepad and if you know of any could you post a link to it???

 

[onedreamer]

ok first off Slavic,calm down there are some valid points in this string,i do feel your plight but need to take a realistic veiw. one dreamer, get educated!

maybe americans should pay a visit to Europe and Asia and study their stories before making certain comments. You said "look at the Pyramids, Stonehenge, etc...". But have you been in front of them or you saw them in a picture ?
Have you been in the streets of a medieval european city ? You can't even call them streets. These cities were in danger to be razed every day and were built as tight as possible to be more defendable. That was also the reason for situations like the one you described. Or did you think that europeans were dirty pigs ?[/B]

the plague

[B]ive been ,was impressed but what i will never forget is standing on top of a temple in tical(the same temple in star wars where the x-wings took off out of the jungle)watching the sun go down ,howler monkeys in the back groand and a flock of parrots gliding over the canopy.[/B][/I
]The mesoamerican cities did not have as big threats as european ones
the mayan and the aztec fought, often they raided cities not for land but sacraficial victims. i think its a little scarier be a direct target rather than collateral damage.

, and even less northern native americans. Probably that is the main reason why they were militarily less advanced.

im not even going to touch this one.

Btw we're not discussing mesoamerican civs here, since we already have 2 of them in Civ4 and a wonder.
incan are south american not meso

It's hard to put a wonder in the game if you can't even connect it to a civ that built it because you know nothing of it.
who built stonehenge?
It's true that history is written by the winner, and what we know about the north american cultures are all suppositions if not for what has been written about them by the colonists, because sadly they didn't know written History.
A LOAD of other civs have been completely annihilated in the history of Man, not just native americans... what did you think ? But we do know many things about them because they themselves wrote about them.

If you want to be proud of native americans, you do not need to see them in a game where they won't fit well. Instead of calling pigs european civs or trying to defend pointless arguments like "the natives have been killed by small pox, otherwise europeans would have gotten kicked back"

little big horn

, why don't you try to be proud of what natives really achieved ? They lived in the respect and communion of Nature, an achievement BY FAR greater than building the serpent mound IMO, and an example that modern americans should try to follow instead of blatantly ignoring the health of our planet.[/

Can you please learn to quote if you have to ?
So trying to discern your VERY ELABORATED answers, they were:

1) The plague.
Uh ? What ? Is this an answer or a rebus ? Does "The plague" mean that europeans were dirty pigs ? Ah well..

2) im not even going to touch this one.
That's called having no arguments to answer with. The correct sentence should have been: "well you're right, I can't debate that".

3) incan are south american not meso
and ? How relevant is this ? They are still not native american, which is the subject of the poll together with african.

4) little big horn
I don't know what this complex and elaborated answer is supposed to mean...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------dont worry this string seems to attract ignorance,it wont be the last time.
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toldya

Again can you try and learn to format your text properly ?
The most ignorant of the statements is to call someone ignorant without the slightest explanation.

 

[Cannae]

It is aslo quite ignorant to say learnt insted of learned so think abought that before you call some one ignorant.

 

[chef pablo]

grrrr, slavic ignore this guy ,he doesnt post for like a week and then has nothing constuctive anyway.

 

[Cannae]

Yes I already put him on my ignore list and I icurage anyone who is offended by him to put him on the ignore list so this therad does not become shut down.

 

[Dionysius]

slavic sioux, you appeared to want more information.
here it is:

Great Mosque of Djenné
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Great Mosque's signature trio of minarets overlooks the central market
of Djenné.The Great Mosque of Djenné is the largest mud brick building in the
world and is considered by many architects to be the greatest achievement of
the Sudano-Sahelian architectural style, albeit with definite Islamic influences.
The mosque is located in the city of Djenné, Mali on the flood plain of the Bani
River. The first mosque on the site was built in the 13th century, but the current
structure dates from 1907. As well as being the centre of the community of Djenné,
it is one of the most famous landmarks in Africa. Along with the "Old Towns of
Djenné" it was designated a World Heritage Site by UNESCO in 1988.

Port of Carthage:
i have no info, but seing as two other naval wonders
give trade benifits, this should speed up ship production and
give promotions. heres some pics:

 

[Los Tirano]

Watching documentaries on Japan all of today and although these ideas arent for africa or america they really deserve to be called wonders.

The temples and necropolis of mount Koya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Koya
The white heron castle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himeji_Castle
Kamakura great buddha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamakura_Great_Buddha
Golden pavillion http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/travel/golden_pavilion.html
Imperial palace of japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokyo

Just some ideas. I get the feeling that if you look closely at any country with a lengthy history you will find many wonders.

 

[onedreamer]

grrrr, slavic ignore this guy ,he doesnt post for like a week and then has nothing constuctive anyway.

right. Calling posters ignorant without any explanation is very constructive instead. I post when I can, I don't live on the forums.

 

[onedreamer]

It is aslo quite ignorant to say learnt insted of learned so think abought that before you call some one ignorant.

Lol, learnt is internet slang. Should I correct typos like "aslo" and "icurage" instead. Come on... english is not even my mother language. If you want to make a point of my spelling of learned to counter your insults to Europe and pointless arguments about the military power of native american tribes... well go on. Shows how valid your points have been throughout all the thread.

btw, I think the Harbor of Carthage should be more commercial than military based.
You could also add something about Petra. After all those who discovered it described it as a wonder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra

 

[Dionysius]

first of all, there is already two naval commercial wonders.
three is too many.
second, fair enough mispelling when its a foreign language to ya.
and lastly, is not petra an asian wonder?
just barely, geologically, but it doesnt have much to do with
africa or the americas.
and, concerning a previous post, surely working natives
to death in gold mines and spreading huge numbers of
european illnesses the natives had no immunity to could be
termed a plague? dont worry, i`m sure the werent trying to
offend you.

 

[Cannae]

Look Onedreamer I will contact a moderator to make you leave this therad because it is not consructive, and you Obviously are trying to get your point across because I have notcied before you said anything today it was not on the first page thus meaning you looked for it meaning you are just trying to keep an arguement alive that doesn't need to be.

Is there a lack of Native American and African wonders?

Please look at he title of this therad does it say this is a debate aboghut whether Europeans or Natives are better no it does'nt so why you do you just go into this therad and start one???Oh yah for aboght your racsim what's the point of being raciset and what possable perpose does it serve you???

 

[Red Door]

Look Onedreamer I will contact a moderator to make you leave this therad because it is not consructive, and you Obviously are trying to get your point across because I have notcied before you said anything today it was not on the first page thus meaning you looked for it meaning you are just trying to keep an arguement alive that doesn't need to be.


Please look at he title of this therad does it say this is a debate aboghut whether Europeans or Natives are better no it does'nt so why you do you just go into this therad and start one???Oh yah for aboght your racsim what's the point of being raciset and what possable perpose does it serve you???

Technically he said that the Port of Carthage should be more commercial than militaristic.

And you're the one that started the Europe crap when everybody told you that the Native Americans were primitive.

 

[Cannae]

And you're the one that started the Europe crap when everybody told you that the Native Americans were primitive.

Look ALcosta I do not think that Europeans are bad people in fact I would be attacking myself aswell (hence the name Slavic Sioux).Tecnncly I did not start this arguement in fact I wasn't wanting one at all.I just wanted wonder ideas and when ice2k4 said someting that was not too bad some people got offended by it (inculing me) and said something back.

Well, firstly, let's differientiate between Northern-Africa (pro-domanently Muslim, closely related to Europe and the Middle East) and Sub-Saharan Africa (pro-dominanently Christian converted and tribal.) I think there is a lack of North African wonders in the game. I don't think there is much Sub-Saharan Africa did that we are aware of, that would be considered a wonder.

Let's also make a second differentiation. When you speak of Native American, I assume you mean civilized Native America (which was basically anything Mexico and south.) North of Mexico (North America) the indians were constantly moving with food, so built no wonders, becuase they built no cities.

Native American (South America, civilized) to me faces an even worse problem than Sub-Saharan Africa. There not even around today. They didn't have a written language, so we don't know what they did. As a matter of fact, we don't even know what their language was. They may of had wonders in ancient times, that weren't around by the time good ol' Columbus wiped 'em out. Since they didn't bother to write anything down, we don't know what there wonders were. And when Europe landed in South America, anything we today consider a wonder, they wouldn't have becasue they wouldn't be able to tell how long ago it was built. And nothing was a wonder in South America from 1492-1700 (in Europe's point of view) because the Europeans were so technologically advanced compared to them, everything they had was obsolete.

Now for you Ice and aLcOSTA WOULD you like to hear what you want to???I will do that if you want

 

[Red Door]

You know what I would like to hear from you.

I completed a mod.

All you have done since you came on these forums is make stupid remarks and questions. You don't contribute anything to the modding world, but you do seem to think everybody should change their mods so that some stupid Native Americans can be included.

 

[Cannae]

Actllay I have tried to contribute a mod but I don't know how to get this file to this website but you have to go intom other websites and put my **** files into them!!!Get over the fact that some people have no skills at modding Aslo every time I have tried to test a new civ or mod that I made it fails to work becasue it is WAY too teidous for me so please go easy on me it hurts me a lot.

 

[onedreamer]

Look Onedreamer I will contact a moderator to make you leave this therad because it is not consructive, and you Obviously are trying to get your point across because I have notcied before you said anything today it was not on the first page thus meaning you looked for it meaning you are just trying to keep an arguement alive that doesn't need to be.
Please look at he title of this therad does it say this is a debate aboghut whether Europeans or Natives are better no it does'nt so why you do you just go into this therad and start one???Oh yah for aboght your racsim what's the point of being raciset and what possable perpose does it serve you???

Uh ? It was you to start it. The main point of this whole thread is that "native americans deserve more wonders because they were great civs etc". I've been answering to this statements and I've never went disserting about the health accross medieval european cities streets, which has little to do with the topic and that was again started by you.
One more thing "aboght my racsim": if you want so much to prove that I am racist ( ) please DO QUOTE my racist statements because I'm very curious. I will repeat once more that I am a big fan of native americans way of life. You guys have a curious behaviour, calling posters racists or ignorants without any quote or explanation for your claims, and then threatening to call mods ? By all means do so. And all this only because some of us have a more objective or anyway different view of north america's history ? Way to go...

@Petra, it's not really in Asia... but very close to Africa. Yeah it's not in Africa, my bad ... >_>
@Harbor of Carthage: yes there are already two commercial wonders. And ? Either remove one or give a different kind of commercial bonus. Why should this wonder be represented as a military wonder when it actually wasn't ? Three commercial wonders are too many ? Well, let's count military wonders.... heh.

 

[Los Tirano]

That sounds good Olleus, and it makes sense. A fine harbour is going to lead to better made ships, and an influx of more skilled seamen D ).

The debate does really need to be taken beyond native america and africa. For native america the engineering accomplishments of the aztecs and incans should be acknowledged. The nomadic way of life does have its advantages, but nomadic people fall behind in technology and suffer from a lack of what could be considered wonders. Though some will claim almost anything made by their favourite people is a wonder, and then throw relativism at the entire discussion as a cover.

Anyway, lets not forget other societies of the world have their own achievements that can easily be called wonders. I have already posted my ideas on wonders in Japan.

 

[dh_epic]

I'm late in arriving to this thread, but I figure I should mention this. A large part of Africa was extremely developed in the middle ages -- including Ethiopia, Mali, Ghana, and the Mediteranean Coast.

But anything south of those was pretty Nomadic. Likewise, most of the peoples north of the Aztecs were pretty Nomadic as well. Nomads are considered the 'opposite' of Civilization. And it's hard to have wonders when you don't have permanant settlements.

More than anything, though, you don't wanna overload the game with wonders to the point that they mean nothing.

 

[tlucky4life]

This thread was originally started to inquire into the possibilities for including any wonders from the Americas or Africa. I agree with the aurguments put forth for playballance. I have an idea to make native religions. Feathered serpant for the aztecs, sun god for the incas, and maybe medicine society for northern natives. I would need building graffics for longhouse/ wigwams.The religious wonder could be cohicia, or a mound with a wigwam atop it. For serpent religion a mound with a house of the magician on top. I feal that the moounds should be represented by religion. Cohicia being on the mississippi was commercial in nature. Religous founding buildings could represent this without cutting into gameplay.