Is there a way to know on average how many resources of each type are on each map?

[VirusMonster]

In my last game, I was only getting +4-6 good for Sushi, because the resources were rather few, can someone elaborate on this fact? With larger map sizes, there should be more resources, but my feeling is that some map types give more resources than others?

 

[alex sword]

more coastal land = more Sushi resources . Archipelago maps loves them, continents have them a lot, pangea sucks. I even would consider an idea to switch to cereal meals playing pangea as soon as the corporation is available and spam sushi to AIs instead.

 

[oyzar]

Totatly unrelated but is it possible to have sushi and mills in the same city if you don't have rice?

Of course resources are defendant on map. It is obviously documented in code somewhere however it might be simpler to just make 5-10 games and just count the resources. I belive this is somewhat done already for most map types somewhere in the forum, finding it would be a pain though.

 

[cabert]

Totatly unrelated but is it possible to have sushi and mills in the same city if you don't have rice?

I don't think so.
The civilopedia mentions the corps are competing, so I guess it's a corp feature, and not a resource dependent feature.

Of course resources are defendant on map. It is obviously documented in code somewhere however it might be simpler to just make 5-10 games and just count the resources. I belive this is somewhat done already for most map types somewhere in the forum, finding it would be a pain though.

I think it's easier to shuffle throught the code, but if you want to do the experiment notice you don't really need to play.
Just go into World Builder mode.

 

[VirusMonster]

On pangea large map , I was only getting 4-6 extra food per city using sushi :/ I had it support at least 10-12 extra food, but I guess for each additional resource it costs more gold to sustain the coorperation.

 

[cabert]

On pangea large map , I was only getting 4-6 extra food per city using sushi :/ I had it support at least 10-12 extra food, but I guess for each additional resource it costs more gold to sustain the coorperation.

exact
I've had +12 food from sid's sushi, but the price was high. Although I had the corp's HQ in my wall street city, I was losing money for each extra city.
Of course, having 6 specialists is worth more than this .

 

[OTAKUjbski]

On pangea large map , I was only getting 4-6 extra food per city using sushi :/ I had it support at least 10-12 extra food, but I guess for each additional resource it costs more gold to sustain the coorperation.

The scaling of fees to # of resources is linear, so if resource 1 is profitable, so is resource 2⁺. (Just something to keep in mind.)

On a related note, every resource beyond the first costs a size 19 city +1.5 base on a Large map. (Conversely, if you have 14 resources, every new population point costs the city an extra +0.75 base )

 

[Refar]

The scaling of fees to # of resources is linear, so if resource 1 is profitable, so is resource 2⁺. (Just something to keep in mind.)

On a related note, every resource beyond the first costs a size 19 city +1.5 base on a Large map. (Conversely, if you have 14 resources, every new population point costs the city an extra +0.75 base )

While the scaling of fees to number of ressources is linear, it is also affected by the city size. Because of this i.e. Sushi can get very expensive: if it has lots of ressources (increasing the fees) it will let the cities grow huge (increasing the fees again).

 

[OTAKUjbski]

You said the same thing in another thread, but I never got a response after disclaiming it.

While the scaling of fees to number of ressources is linear, it is also affected by the city size. Because of this i.e. Sushi can get very expensive: if it has lots of ressources (increasing the fees) it will let the cities grow huge (increasing the fees again).

The increase caused by population is only 1/18th the base rate. Even if you have 14 resources, an increase of +1 population on a Standard map only increases the fees by 0.5 after the Courthouse -- which is more than worth it no matter what that extra population point is doing.

The previous post went like this:

Not exactly.

If a particular city's Corporate Branch is profitable, it's unlikely to become unprofitable later.

Map Size and Difficulty have the greatest affect on Corporate Maintenance, but those are constant.

Civics are perhaps the most influential variable but are controlled by the user and so not unforseen or unnoticed.

Number of resources is the biggest variable, but it's a linear calculation, so if resource 1 is profitable, every resource behind it also will be.

Population is a very small variable which increases base maintenance by only 1/18th per population point. (It takes +18 population points to double Corporate Maintenance in a city.)

For example: If you have 20 instances of Sid's Sushi resources, you'd get +10 food resulting in +5 population. 20 resources in a Standard-sized, Noble game should cost 24 base gold. Each population point only increases that number by ( 24 / 18 = 1.33 gold ), so a population increase of 5 would increase the Corporate Maintenance by ( 5 * 1.33 = 6.67 gold ). I assume the city has a Courthouse, so the actual increase to Corporate Fees is ( 6.67 / 2 = 3.33 ).​

In that example, the increase in Corporate Fees caused by the population increase could easily be offset by working just one Specialist or Town.

Unspecified in either example are increased Civics fees and yield from better Trade Routes -- neither of which I'm breaking downhere. The summary of it is that everything offsets in such a way that population increase due to Corporations is not as bad as you made it sound.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the notion either GM Corporation can become too expensive due to city growth is actually a pretty ridiculous statement:

The whole point of spreading those Corporations is to grow the city, so if growing the city wasn't profitable (or deemed "worth it") to start with, then you'd think the Corporation would've never been spread there in the first place.

 

[Sjaramei]

I've had Sushi give +20 food, it's huge. Representation and full growth on all cities and your economy explodes. (in a good way ) Spread it as fast as you are able to, it will profit even though it costs a lot. (remember you can cottage away lots of farms since they are not needed anymore too)

Combine with Mining Inc so you get the infrastructure up soon enough to support it and all your cities will be monsters.

Sushi maps, are as mentioned, Continents/Archipelago (my +20 food map )/ Hemispheres and Big and Small. Sushi is good on almost all maps, Cereal doesn't quite get enough resources to be that big on all maps. For the others I think the Cold/Temperate/Tropical setting decides how much metals and stuff you get.

 

[Refar]

You said the same thing in another thread, but I never got a response after disclaiming it.

Oh... i never seen your comment... I am not sure however, what's there to disclaim. My comment was/is, that Corp Maintenance is growing with city size, which is true. No valuation/opinion there.

As to valuation...

EDIT: [...]
The whole point of spreading those Corporations is to grow the city, so if growing the city wasn't profitable (or deemed "worth it") to start with, then you'd think the Corporation would've never been spread there in the first place.

Now, that's exactly waht i am talking about.

There are cities (games/empires/situations/...) worth spreading Sushi into them, and there are others, where growing is not worth the trouble/expense. Spread into the right cities, and you are fine. Brainless Sushi Spam can harm you.

-----

Assuming the Number of Ressources beeing constant, sure, if it's profitable to plant Sushi there in the first place, then no harm is done in the city actually growing...
How about aquiring new ressources and growing even bigger ?
Another thing is - not only the Maintenance for Sushi increases with size. Having another Corp in the same city, will have it's fees increased as well, without the benefit changing...

Let Look at a Example. A mature, well developed city in reasonable good land.

The Corporations Costs are:
(4 + #Ressources_used) * (City_Size + 17)/18 * 0.5 - 12
* 0.5 is from Courthose, 12 is the from the Headquaters under Wall Street (it's not in the city in question, we just assume it does exist somewherwe), which we substract from the fee.

Assume the city at it's full natural size of 20 in food equilibrium and working all plots.
Also the City has Mininc Inc already, before we Plant Sushi. Mining+Sushi is a favoured combo i recon...

Mining has 16 Ressources giving us 16 :
20 * (20+17)/18 * 0.5 - 12 = 8.56 for 16 . Hard to beat that.

Now plant sushi in it with 20 ressuorces:
24 * (20+17)/18 * 0.5 - 12 = 12.67 Initial Maintenance.

Now using the newly aquired 10 for 5 additional Pop the city grows. Since Mining does not benefit from additional Pop, but becomes more expensive, we add those additional cost to Sushis fees as well:
24 * (25+17)/18 * 0.5 - 12 = 16
20 * (25+17)/18 * 0.5 - 12 = 11.33 - 8.56

Where do we stand now?
18.77 we are Paying for 5 Specialists.
We would have to run 3 merchants under 100% multipliers to offset 18 fee.
So the net gain of Sushi in this city are 2 free specialists. Still not bad.

So much for the preliminaries. Another Question is:
Is it worth now to trade for more Sushi ressources, to increase the bonus ?

Assume we aquire 4 more Sushi-ressources for 2 to grow the city one more point....

28 * (26+17)/18 * 0.5 - 12 = 21.44
20 * (26+17)/18 * 0.5 - 12 = 11.89

6 more Maintenace for one more specialist... So if we run him as Merchant we are roughly breaking even. We did however went into some trouble to aquire 4 more Sushi ressources (Giving Ressources to AI, or Planting a City to grab more Fish...)

Another one ?
32 * (27+17)/18 * 0.5 - 12 = 27.11
20 * (27+17)/18 * 0.5 - 12 = 12.44
This one comes at 6.22

Never seen Sushi giving me more than 14 food, so i stop here.

The point is: Each added Sitizen you gain from Sushi becomes slightly more expensive than the previous one.

Also note all of this is noble. On Monarch there is a additional (* 1.2) so 6.22 becomes 7.64 to pay for one dude.
On the other hand Corps are often run under free market, which would again lower the cost... But this also means, that you don't run - just for example - Mercantilism, which is one Specialist less again...

In the right city and under right civics it's worth it.
Spamming it brainlessly, can make the cost more than the benefit.

Many things play into it, so the question if it is allways worth it to go for Sushi / spam it in every city / max-out it's ressources does not seem that ridiculous to me.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

No valuation/opinion there.

Oh. I guess I read too much into it.

Another thing is - not only the Maintenance for Sushi increases with size. Having another Corp in the same city, will have it's fees increased as well, without the benefit changing...

I've considered that before, but the increase for the other Corporations is usually minor (~ +0.5 ), so I've never really given it much thought.

What I had not considered before is that the very nature of the GM Corporations is quadratic. Sure, the resources and population elements are each linear, but since increasing the resources [almost] always results in a subsequent increase in population, the net effect is no longer linear.

I feel like an idiot not noticing that before!

It appears each population point becomes ~8-10% more expensive than the last in tiny cities and ~4-6% more expensive than the last in large cities.

In case you care to see it, the formula for calculating the base (pre-Buildings, Civics & Difficulty) change in due to population/resource increase/decrease on a Standard-sized map is:

∆:gold: = ( 17 * ∆Resources + 4 * ∆Population + Resources[sub]f[/sub] * Population[sub]f[/sub] - Resources[sub]i[/sub] * Population[sub]i[/sub] ) / 18

So even though you weren't necessarily evaluating the GM Corps as having a 'ceiling', you've still proven they do.

I might have to start reconsidering how I prioritize where to spread Sid's Sushi, because it appears if it starts out initally barely profitable (read: "worth it"), it could easily become unprofitable if a large quantity of food resources are acquired!


Thanks for taking the time out to make your post ... it's given me something to consider.

 

[Sjaramei]

I'm no math wizard (you guys got way too much time ) but from personal experience corps is worth it regardless how crappy the city is. Trade routes more than pays for the maintenance when you get harbors/custom houses? up. For the cities without ocean access, well cottage up. (you don't need farms anymore) and even build wealth. (mining inc is insane for this, hammers converted is much more than you are paying in maintenance)

I'm getting more and more into these trade routes, they are so important, yet almost invisible. And these scales with population as well

 

[Refar]

I've considered that before, but the increase for the other Corporations is usually minor (~ +0.5 ), so I've never really given it much thought.

What I had not considered before is that the very nature of the GM Corporations is quadratic. Sure, the resources and population elements are each linear, but since increasing the resources [almost] always results in a subsequent increase in population, the net effect is no longer linear.

Yes, this is what i meant. The quadratic nature of the function can (as in not allways must) cause the many - insignificant on they own - factors so add (or rather multiply ) up to a more or less unpleasant result.

In case you care to see it, the formula for calculating the base (pre-Buildings, Civics & Difficulty) change in due to population/resource increase/decrease on a Standard-sized map is:

∆:gold: = ( 17 * ∆Resources + 4 * ∆Population + Resources[sub]f[/sub] * Population[sub]f[/sub] - Resources[sub]i[/sub] * Population[sub]i[/sub] ) / 18

The formula is correct, but hard to interprete, because of the high number of variables. I fiddled with it a bit (let's hope i did not smuggled a typo in it...)...

∆M = ∆Ress/18 * (17 + Pop_i + C * (4 + Ress_f)) * 0.5_Courthouse

With C = 1/4 for Sushi, C = 3/8 for Cereals and C = 0 otherwise (True if no ressources are lost to )

Some observations:
- Cities with high natural population are more likely to drop out of the 'worth it' area, than cities that have low natural pop. (Because Pop_initial is a factor.)
- All corps but Sushi and Cereals are not affected by the quardatic cost increase, as C = 0 cancels the quadratic Ress component.
- Other factors aside (Avaiability of the Tech/Ressources, Culture) Cereals is more cost efficient to increase the city size, as (assuming a fixed "target" size) it uses less ressources to achive the goal, hence reducing the quadratic component of the function.

Another random observation...
One of the factors we omited in the calculation is difficultie level. It's <1.0 below noble, 1.0 on noble and increases with +0.1 per higher level. on Deithy it would be 1.5 making spreading Sushi in own cities far less attractive, as every extra Citizen would cost some ~6...
A very unfortunate design desision imho.

 

[Sjaramei]

Another random observation...
One of the factors we omited in the calculation is difficultie level. It's <1.0 below noble, 1.0 on noble and increases with +0.1 per higher level. on Deithy it would be 1.5 making spreading Sushi in own cities far less attractive, as every extra Citizen would cost some ~6...
A very unfortunate design desision imho.

It's not unprofitable.... I play Immortal and I've spammed it in every city I have and I GAINED from it. Free market and trade routes is more than enough to handle the expenses, add representation and specialists and I double my research beakers during the time they grow. As mentioned in my earlier post Mining inc gives more hammers than the maintenance cost so it pays itself that way anyway.

First time I tried this strategy it felt like cheating because my GNP ended up 20 times the AI's highest, and my production the same. Corps are insane when you get enough resources. Don't forget that you get 4 gold for every corp branch too, with wall street and stuff that helps a lot too.

 

[Refar]

I already pointed out, that mining (any not GM corp) are not affected but this at all. I am not sure if i like the idea of Spaming MinInc, to produce Wealth.

But Mining can be a very strong Corporation, yes.

From my experience i was rather unimpressed with Sushi, feeling that if supplied with a lot of ressources (giving 10+ food in every city) it taxed my economy more than i liked - this in-game experience is what got me thinking in the first place - the formal bla-bla you can see above is a rather recent development...

I would like to see a couple of city screenshots or a save from a game where you felt to have gained from Sushi beeing maxed out, because i myself - despite finding it usefull for some purposes (Culture, limited spread) - so far failed to make a good use of a empire-wide Sushi. I dont want go spread a corp to have it running at or close to breaking even, because of the opportunity cost, and because in the late game the time you can benefit from the corp till victory is rather short, so if spreadin it, i want it to really matter.

 

[Sjaramei]

I've erased the last game I won using this combo sadly, but I did achieve 8k+ score there with Sushi and Dikes. (The dutch are insane ) And pulling 4k+ research beakers pr. turn. (Almost beat my top score that game too, 260k or so default score )

That would be a good game to see the power of Sushi and representation. I'll try to get another game where I can post some screens and save during the next days. (Depends how much time I get)


I almost took some screens during that game, because the graphs looked hilarious after my corp spamming. My power graph went from middle of the pack to 3-4 times the size of the strongest AI in a very short time

 

[popejubal]

What I had not considered before is that the very nature of the GM Corporations is quadratic. Sure, the resources and population elements are each linear, but since increasing the resources [almost] always results in a subsequent increase in population, the net effect is no longer linear.

One thing that I noticed in my games well before I actually put any thought into analysis is that I got significantly more benefit from spreading Sushi to my lackluster cities than I got from spreading it to my powerhouse cities.

After some analysis, I realized why and I've shifted my Sushi corporate strategy. I had been spreading Sid's Sushi to my very best cities who were already at their population limits. I've now changed that to spreading the corp to the cities who would benefit most from additional growth rate.

To restate that in other words, I don't look at which cities have the most to gain from additional population. Instead, I look at which cities have the most to gain from increasing the speed at which they gain population.


Think about early cities where you plan to apply the whip. You want the cities to be relatively small so that you can regrow the whipped population as fast as possible and apply the whip again in later turns. If you are working 3 wheat tiles and a farmed grassland, you'll be able to whip much more heavily than if you are working 3 wheat tiles and 10 farmed grasslands simply because the growth rate for the first city is so much greater even though the larger city is producing more food per turn.

I now look at how many more population will Sid's Sushi give me over the next 50 turns rather than just looking at the quality of the city where that population will live.

When I do spread Sid's Sushi to a mature city at its population limit, I use it to change the nature of the city's improved tiles instead of using it to grow the city. If I have a city with 5 farms and a ton of Windmills, I'll turn the farms into Watermills or Workshops and I may turn some or all of the Windmills into mines.

If I have a city with lots of cottages, I probably still have a couple of farms to support a higher growth rate for the city even if I didn't need it to support the raw number of cottages that I have in that city. Sushi allows me to eliminate those farms.