Is there a way to stop the AI repeatedly asking for the same thing e.g. help with war

The thing is, I don't see Civ as a wargame. It's not, in any case. And I don't want to play it like it was. War is a minor and for me quite inconsistant part of the game. That's just another event. So apparently you don't have any problem with doing things that are totally absurd for the "civilization leader" you're supposed to play, I mean give tributes and such to mechanically increase your diplo modifiers, thinking as a player and not as a empire leader, but for others that just breaks all the immersion and thus all the fun, and I'm one of these.

In other words, you want to turtle.

Stop doing that.

Then you will win.

I'm sorry, but you're not using the diplomacy system as it was designed to be used. Learn how to use it properly, and you won't have people declaring war on you when you don't want war.
 
It does. They won't go to war with you at friendly; they will never plan to go to war with you when they are at friendly, it is in the code, it has value of 0. However, there are certain cases where a friendly civ will declare war on you. Other than the obvious Apostolic Palace crusade order, there is another less obvious one. A civ at pleased can choose to go to war with you, it has to first trigger that that civ will go to war with you, but it will not declare right away, it will declare later as it builds up its forces. When it is ready (whenever that is), it will then declare war even if relations have already went up to friendly in that time.

Hope that made sense.

This varies according to leaders. Certain aggressive leaders like Monty or isabella, whom both we all hate with a vengeance, I believe can plan to go to war with you even if they are friendly. They are simply always planning to go to war or at it. It depends if they have any enemies left or not
 
The diplomacy system is not supposed to be realistic.

This is where you have misunderstood the complaint entirely.

The problem is not that it is unrealistic. I can cope with a negative modifier for close borders for simplification's sake. The complaint is that the system is so illogical, unrealistic, and asymmetric that it breaks immersion and game balance.

- O

PS: You are describing what the system is 'supposed' to do.... could you please provide a reference making explicit what the system is supposed to do? Or are you a Dev? Confused.
 
I'm sorry, but you're not using the diplomacy system as it was designed to be used.

Ooooooo, here's another one I must request a reference for.

Please direct me to the design statements governing the diplomacy system.

Thanks in advance!
- O
 
In other words, you want to turtle.

Stop doing that.

Then you will win.

I'm sorry, but you're not using the diplomacy system as it was designed to be used. Learn how to use it properly, and you won't have people declaring war on you when you don't want war.
In other words, you just can't read. Well, too bad.

If being the world's [canine female] is the way the diplomacy system was designed to be used, I sure don't use it properly, and never will. I guess I'll just have to keep winning 99% of my games without lowering my pants, as I've done for two years now.

Thank you for enlightening us with your wisdom about what the game is supposed to be.
 
CivIV aint no wargame. It can be played as one but one certainly doesn't have to. I've played numerous games as "turtle" and it works fine, usualy gets me diplo/culture/space victory. The point is, a turtle needs a strong shell. In other words, even the most defensive player needs a strong army. Build ton's of defensive units, be nice to the AI as far as possible and fight back whenever some brute want's your cookies, but don't start wars yourself, at least not as long as it aint completely necessary.
I easily spend at least 75% of my playtime per game not at war.
 
Where as I can see 250 years of fighting in just one war, probably over the 1000 year mark of fighting all in. Probably explains why my initially cities DIE from unhappyness! :D
 
the diplomacy system is flawed. but it has to be biased against the human because the human is a much better player than the AI. it would be cool if you could change ur stance towards the AI like they cna towards you. so they would know if ur peeved or happy with them. plus an option to turn this option off.
 
Yes I would like to barr civs from being able to approach me, like they do if I cancel 'our' deals with them.
 
Prior to starting this game as the NA I'd played a great game as Brennus, where I ended up winning a Diplomatic Victory, but only after conquering all but two of the other 8 civs, and making the rest my vassals.

For the NA game, I wanted to try out the "Builder" strategy for a while, but the lame diplomacy system had other ideas. Thing is, I'm certainly prepared to get invloved in a war when the time is right, but this Monty/Darius war was the first and only war in the game up to this point, and it was taking place so far from my land that it really didn't concern me.

Now, Powerslave, why should I get involved in this war? I didn't see any of the other civs getting involved, so why should I? Oh, and what happens when the second war of the game breaks out? I take it I must also get involved in that, yes? And the third war? Well, I suppose I should get involved in that too.

Frankly, I find it incredible that anyone can defend a system where an AI will ask you five times to get involved in a war. How stupid must the AI be to think that you'll answer yes, when you've said no the previous four times. But who suffers as a result of this retardedness? That's right, you do. Bah, what stupid nonsense this is.
 
They should change it to saying no gives you a -1 with the civ asking, and +1 with the civ being asked about.

Or at least only allow them to ask once per war. If I told you no already what makes you think its yes this time? If I tell you no and change my mind guess what? I will declare war without you asking. :nono:
 
They should change it to saying no gives you a -1 with the civ asking, and +1 with the civ being asked about.

YES! I have this on my (long) list of essential improvements for the diplomatic engine. Choices that anger one half of a rivalry should please the other half. It doesn't have to be zero-sum, but some positive reaction seems reasonable.

Also, some penalties should be removed by a successful war against them (they have to accept unfavorable terms to sue for peace). In other words, when I crush the AI in war, it turns out I was quite reasonable to refuse to pay tribute or my demands don't seem so arrogant after all.

And not all modifiers should apply all the time. My trading with an AI's worst enemy may disappoint them, but on the particular calculation of whether or not I become their worst enemy, it should be ignored. Similarly, my failure to help the AI during wartime should never move the needle when that AI is deciding to go to war with me.

(Don't get me started on all the things that are missing from the 'sue for peace' interaction, like DMZs or caps on the losers military spending, or even non-proliferation.)

- O
 
I actually made that change in my local mod. Works pretty well. I didn't make it zero sum (in most cases you get about half of the positive compared to negative), but it can still help cement relationships. Or keep you from being hated by everyone.

Bh
 
Look, it's not all that complicated. I already wrote a rather long, involved post about how to use the diplomacy system to your advantage. The problem is that people don't want to do so. You don't have to be the world's "female canine" (?).

Stop trying to role-play your leader. That's ridiculous. This is not a role-playing game. This is a wargame. If you really need proof of that, try remove all the wargame elements, and see what you're left with. By my calculation, it's close to nothing, except theatres, the culture slider, and a cultural victory. The diplomacy system is essentially based on Realpolitik. Basically, Realpolitik is based on a Machiavellian world-view where you take the most politically advantageous path, disregarding morality. If you want to role-play your leader, pretend you're Kissinger.

And, no, I'm certainly no developer, but if it's truly that important to you, I can use the SDK and the XML files to explain how the AI plays: it plays the exact same way that I'm telling you is the best way to play. Mechanically. The AI doesn't care how nice you are or whether you're playing Gandhi as a pacifist. It will declare war on you, mechanically, when your power rating drops belong a certain value. Yes, yes, I recognize you have the "right" to play however you want, but if you'd like to know how to use the diplomacy system to your advantage, I can tell you. If you want to role-play, then you'll come up against unfair game elements that break your immersion. Constantly. You know why? Because the game was not designed to facilitate this style of play.

I'll try to explain it all again, this time with simpler words and examples, because something is not getting through. Let's assume this is a Monarch or Emperor game, Pangaea or close to it, and Normal speed. I'll demonstrate how everything that happens in the game is by my plan. By manipulating the diplomacy system, I can control when war is declared, upon whom war is declared, and slow down a powerful competitor's research, when he threatens to overtake my tech lead:

4000BC: I scout my land. I discover Julius Caesar, Tokugawa, Isabella, Catherine, Mansa Musa, Huyana Capac, Roosevelt, and Cyrus. Somewhere off on an island, I later find Genghis Khan.
3000BC: Julius Caesar makes a demand. I give him what he wants, because I want to have better diplomatic relations with him. Notice, I do not "role-play" or whine about his demand. I use it to my advantage, and now have a +1 diplomatic modifier.
2000BC: By now, Isabella founds many religions and builds a few shrines. She spreads her state religion to most of the world, which switch to that religion. Mansa Musa is the sole hold-out, for he has founded his own religion. I take note of this and choose to ally myself with Isabella, against Mansa Musa.
1500BC: Caesar makes another demand. I could probably win a war against him, but I still give in, because I want to have allies later on in the game. When both he and I are in Representation, and I have positive trade relations with him, he'll probably jump to Friendly. I'll get free techs and resources from him, not to mention get lucrative foreign trade routes, which I wouldn't get, if I conquered him.
750BC: More demands and requests from Caesar. Again, I give in, even though I feel that my military is up to the task of killing his Praetorians.
200BC: Mansa Musa is dead, and I control the majority of his lands, including the shrine he built. I do not switch my state religion, because I want to keep positive relations with Isabella.
100AD: War breaks out among the faithful. Tokugawa and Caesar now hate each other, and they both want me to choose sides. I decide to attack Tokugawa, because he's Protective, and I think Protective is a joke. Also, I have previous goodwill established with Caesar, thanks to giving in to his earlier demand.
500AD: Tokugawa is dead. Caesar is growing more powerful. I make note of this and decide to ally myself with Caesar against any of his future enemies.
750AD: Catherine makes several ridiculous demands of me, and I tire of her. I declare war on her, bribing all my friends into war, as well, so that I don't get any diplomatic hits (-1, you declare war on our friend).
900AD: I discover Genghis Khan. He continues to be a thorn in my side for the next few hundred years, trying to extort techs and money from me. Seeing as how he can't even send any ships, I refuse each time. What's he going to do? Anyways, he's got his own religion, which means that everyone hates him. I don't want to upset my allies by trading with him.
1200AD: Caesar vassalizes Catherine. Caesar is just getting too strong. I decide to spread the religion Mansa Musa founded to all his cities, then use Espionage to change his religion, so that everyone hates him.
1250AD: Capac declares war on Genghis. What, are they going to pillage each others' boats? I agree to Capac's request that I declare war on Genghis. I'm aways for a cold war.
1300AD: Isabella declares war on Caesar, then comes to me, demanding I do the same. I do. I bribe all my friends into declaring war, as well.
1400AD: Genghis comes to me seeking peace. I accept. Not a single fishing boat has been pillaged by anyone.
1500AD: Capac comes to me again, wanting war against Genghis. Genghis Khan gets his ass handed to him when I trade Astronomy to all my allies, organize a war against him, and his backward civilization is finally put out its misery.
1700AD: It's a long, painful process, but Caesar is finally dead, along with Catherine. I annex the majority of his land, making sure to bribe the AIs into settling with him before any of them can turn him into a vassal. I don't want a repeat of the Catherine Vassal Debacle.
1800AD: I finish the Apollo Program. Cyrus quickly follows. I thought I had a huge tech lead, but that is not so, apparently. Checking the demographics reveals that I'm actually second to Cyrus in most categories. I don't want to face Cyrus in battle, because he's both strong and Friendly, which means that I'll have to use sneakier methods. I change my research from SS techs to Mass Media, so that I can build the U.N.
1850AD: I build the U.N., get voted in easily, and call a vote for Environmentalism. Cyrus, of course, defies it, because he wants to stay in State Property. I trigger a diplomatic victory, out of curiosity, but it turns out that Cyrus is my opponent and has enough votes to block my victory. I don't want to attack Cyrus, mostly because I'm lazy and such a large war would take hours.
1860AD: After repeatedly defying the U.N. resolutions, Cyrus' cities are rioting. He finally accepts Environmentalism, and his finances tank. I also bribe him into adopting civics that don't benefit him, such as Serfdom or Nationhood.
1920AD: Isabella, who normally doesn't tech very quickly, is catching up to me and starting to make many SS parts. I begin sabotaging her projects, destroying her laboratories, and bribing other AIs to cancel their deals with her.
1950AD: Predictably, Isabella declares war. The war is a short one, however, because everyone LOVES me, and I've made sure they dislike her. I bribe my allies into the war, and let them take her cities. I'm too busy with building SS parts.
1955AD: Capac spontaneously developes a hatred for Roosevelt, who's been pretty quiet the whole game. I instantly bribe Capac into making peace, so that he doesn't force me to choose sides. My military is a little thin, since I've been spamming SS parts.
1965AD: It's getting pretty late in the game, and I'm disheartened by all the wars that have slowed down my SS win. Still it looks like I'll be launching in a few turns.
1967AD: I launch, and Capac declares war on me this time. Crazy bastard. Okay, fine, we'll have a stupid 15 turn war, while I wait to win the game.
1970AD: I suddenly remember that the UN hasn't banned nukes yet, and Capac built the Manhattan Project. This is where having friends really comes in handy. I call for a vote to band nukes, and it passes. Capac is the only one to vote no.
1980AD: I win a late SS victory and get something like 40K points. Maybe if I'd conquered the world in 1200AD, I could have gotten triple the points, but I like reaching the modern and future eras, where I can nuke people and send in paratroopers. It also allows me demonstrate some Modern-ish diplomacy, such as using the U.N. resolutions to your benefit.

Okay, I hope this illustrates what I've been talking about.

This is not a real game that I've played, but it consists of anecdotes from many different games that really did happen.
 
I would enjoy being able to insult the AI teams like they insult me, but after all, you cannot insult a computer. You can say no. You can refuse to talk -- when they ask, just click farewell.
Inca never got beyond annoyed, but his vassal requested tech, which i gave, and turned friendly -- then attacked two turns later.
I try to maintain good relations, but i build a strong defensive army and let them come if they want to. So far Capac has lost 22 transports trying to get past my Ships of the Line.
You can't please everyone. One of Capac's negatives was "you refused to give us tribute" I would say, i called his bluff.
 
And, no, I'm certainly no developer, but if it's truly that important to you, I can use the SDK and the XML files to explain how the AI plays: it plays the exact same way that I'm telling you is the best way to play. Mechanically. The AI doesn't care how nice you are or whether you're playing Gandhi as a pacifist. It will declare war on you, mechanically, when your power rating drops belong a certain value. Yes, yes, I recognize you have the "right" to play however you want, but if you'd like to know how to use the diplomacy system to your advantage, I can tell you. If you want to role-play, then you'll come up against unfair game elements that break your immersion. Constantly. You know why? Because the game was not designed to facilitate this style of play.

Powerslave,

First, let me thank you for the amount of effort you put into posting. You are very willing to spend a lot of your own time providing advice and information to others. Thank you.

I fear, however, you are still in denial of what I am challenging about your claims. I am not challenging that deep down Civ works the way you promise, as you suggest in the first sentence of the paragraph I quote above. I agree with what the reality is. (In fact, I even agree with how you claim the reality can be successfully manipulated. No argument there, either. You are quite right in your description of how to cope with the current diplomatic engine.)

I am challenging the claims that resemble the last sentence in the above paragraph ... your claims about the design. The intent. The 'should' part of your pitch. Why isn't it possible that the game was intended/designed differently and poorly implemented?

(I don't want to get into a textual analysis of the marketing claims from Firaxis but here's a cute quote straight from their website: "However, Civilization IV is more than just a great combat game" - kinda on point to your general thesis, no?)

We agree on the 'is' -- but where is the 'should' part coming from?

Yes, that is how to beat the current system. No, I can't believe that the current system is well-thought-out and working as designed.

- O
 
Alpha Centauri has a much better diplomacy model. If they wanted to encourage RP, they would have made another game like SMAC. Every step of the way, SMAC encourages RP.

You're playing the wrong game and believing the marketing BS. In many ways, SMAC actually was a better game than Civ IV, in my opinion. The graphics are a bit dated, and the AI is crap (compared to BtS), but there's a storyline and everything.

I say that Civ IV is a wargame because Firaxis already made a RP/wargame, and it was called SMAC. Nobody bought it. Thus, in the next two games, there is very little opportunity to RP, and if you do try to RP, you get psychotic AIs gunning for you. One or two psychotic leaders (Hitler and Stalin, say) would work, but even Gandhi and Mansa Musa will declare war on you when your power level is low. Now, if Gandhi declaring war doesn't break all sorts of immersion and cause you to realize this is just a big wargame, I don't know what will. I'm just at a complete and utter loss. I mean, Gandhi. War. They don't mix.

My advice: check out SMAC. It's a great game.
 
Powerslave,

Thank you for your reply, and your precis of the recent releases by Firaxis.

I am sorry to say that we seem to disagree as to what qualifies as evidence of design or intent.

Some of the things you mention could be further symptoms of poor implementation instead, like the broken Gandhi.

Some of the things you claim about the market in general would certainly require a further reference. I did play SMAC but I did not know that it was notorious for selling poorly. Is Firaxis on record as regarding SMAC as a failure?

I have some skepticism that you are accurately reading the situation due to to the risk of confirmation bias (you have displayed a remarkably disparaging attitude towards one side of this issue). Have you taken any steps to guard against this? If not, I can't help but discard your anecdotal and inexpert insight into the developer's strategies.

============

This could go on forever, you presenting your 'deductions' about designer intent, and me debunking them as poorly reasoned or unofficial, but the cycle stops here. I'm not debunking the next round. I feel confident that anyone who has understood my previous points has learned the process and can carry it out for themselves.
 
I thought SMAC wasn't much of a seller, but I could be misremembering. I'm certainly not willing to put down more than a few energy credits on that bet.

I tried playing the game without Realpolitik and quickly became annoyed with the issues described; quickly afterward, I decided that I was going to figure out this diplomacy system and master it, given that it was messing up so many of my games.

I actually would like to see more RP possibility in the game, which has made me a little bit bitter about the issue. Behind every cynic is a dreamer with a broken heart, eh?
 
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