Is there a way to....

[MortalD]

Yep yep by accepting that change i would deny my own ideas for the game. Good that u pointed that out for me.

In that case just remove I.fire from all units up to Industrial era and "all are happy" .

 

[Txurce]

I agree with that.

 

[Thalassicus]

I don't think there was an outcry leading to the nerfing of ranged blitz

There was, last summer. It's been at the back of my mind since then. The todo list is just longer than I can ever possibly accomplish alone...




hint hint... <.<

 

[rfxmills]

To me, combining indirect fire with range is more OP. It creates the scenario MortalD cited with ships, where you can have a unit on any tile safely fire once or twice on a city or other units, as early as the medieval era. It dilutes strategy and makes conquest even easier, with the very weapons that have been steadily nerfed lately.

Do ships need range? I don't think they should be able to out range city defences until you get battleships which have a base range of 3.

 

[Thalassicus]

I don't think the range promotion can really pose a threat to cities until the Ship of the Line, which is just a few tech columns before the industrial era. My strategy with early naval bombardment usually involves massing a half dozen units right on top of a city, and trading them out as they get damaged.

 

[Txurce]

I don't know about "need." But they can get it fairly easily way before battleships. Even with caravels, it's a devastating promotion.

Thal, I just read your post. When I used the Ottomans, I had two ranged caravels. They took out a few coastal cities very quickly.

 

[Thalassicus]

I think there's four main variables in that scenario:

• Range vs blitz.
• Ottomans vs non-naval leader.
• Experienced ships vs inexperienced.
• Heavily-defended cities vs lightly-defended.

To make a conclusion about A, we need to control for the other variables. One way is to compare the performance of non-naval-leader caravels attacking the same city after reloading, in three different situations:

• Attacking with the range promotion.
• Attacking twice per turn with Blitz.
• Attacking-and-retreating once per turn with Blitz.

This should take just a few minutes to set up with the world editor. I've got to prepare dinner first, but I'll check this once I get back.

 

[Txurce]

Okay. Were I to have two Indian caravels with range, they would redline a city surprisingly quickly. Blitz probably would just as well. My point was about not having to wait for SOTL's.

 

[Thalassicus]

If light ships are too good against cities, we could add a city penalty.

 

[MortalD]

If light ships are too good against cities, we could add a city penalty.

Then AI will suck when he will try to help himself conquer a city with navy.

And ya, AI do try that SOMEtimes

 

[Txurce]

That would make sense, although I would agree that you have bigger fish to fry (!). I rarely use them as dedicated ranged siege units, just because I tend to limit my unit total. But I was shocked by how devastating they were in my Ottoman game. Part of the problem is that the typical AI city at that stage has a relatively low defense factor.

 

[Lrd Dread]

This is nice, but it does not address (at least I don't think it does) my original rant.

To me, ancient indirect fire weapons and men should not be able to kill anything but ancient - medieval.

Ballistas: 500 yards - one dart
Captapults: 400 yards - 80kg
Trebuchet: 300 meters (just threw bigger rocks, not further) - 1500kg or small rocks
12 pounder Bronze Cannon (1860's): 1619 yds - 10 pound projectile or shot
WWI Artilelry: 2-10km
Modern Tube Artillery: 18-30km
Rocket Artillery 1940'a-1970's:5.5 - 12km
MRLS: ~70km

Crossbowman: 300-400 yards
Archer: 360 yards

A modern infantry division (foot) consists of (3rd US):
Headquarters and Headquarters Company
- 7th Infantry Regiment
- 15th Infantry Regiment
- 30th Infantry Regiment
- 751st Tank Battalion (Medium) [att]
- 3rd Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop (Mechanized)
- 10th Engineer Battalion
- 3rd Division Artillery
- Headquarters and Headquarters Battery
- 9th Field Artillery Battalion (155mm Howitzer)
- 10th Field Artillery Battalion (105mm Howitzer)
- 39th Field Artillery Battalion (105mm Howitzer)
- 41st Field Artillery Battalion (105mm Howitzer)
- 3rd Medical Battalion
- 703rd Ordnance Light Maintenance Company
- 3rd Quartermaster Company
- 3rd Signal Company
- Military Police Platoon
- 1st Battalion, 505th Coast Artillery Regiment [att]
- 409th AAA Gun Battalion [att] [-2bat
- 441st AAA Automatic Weapons Battalion (Self-Propelled) [att]
- 3rd Platoon, 48th Quartermaster Company (Graves Registration) [att]

all told 20,000 men, a crossbow group consists of about 300 men max.

I do not accept the premise that the crossbowmen are not crossbowmen.... they are really partisons with molotov cocktails...

 

[MortalD]

This is nice, but it does not address (at least I don't think it does) my original rant.

To me, ancient indirect fire weapons and men should not be able to kill anything but ancient - medieval.

Ballistas: 500 yards - one dart
Captapults: 400 yards - 80kg
Trebuchet: 300 meters (just threw bigger rocks, not further) - 1500kg or small rocks
12 pounder Bronze Cannon (1860's): 1619 yds - 10 pound projectile or shot
WWI Artilelry: 2-10km
Modern Tube Artillery: 18-30km
Rocket Artillery 1940'a-1970's:5.5 - 12km
MRLS: ~70km

Crossbowman: 300-400 yards
Archer: 360 yards

A modern infantry division (foot) consists of (3rd US):
Headquarters and Headquarters Company
- 7th Infantry Regiment
- 15th Infantry Regiment
- 30th Infantry Regiment
- 751st Tank Battalion (Medium) [att]
- 3rd Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop (Mechanized)
- 10th Engineer Battalion
- 3rd Division Artillery
- Headquarters and Headquarters Battery
- 9th Field Artillery Battalion (155mm Howitzer)
- 10th Field Artillery Battalion (105mm Howitzer)
- 39th Field Artillery Battalion (105mm Howitzer)
- 41st Field Artillery Battalion (105mm Howitzer)
- 3rd Medical Battalion
- 703rd Ordnance Light Maintenance Company
- 3rd Quartermaster Company
- 3rd Signal Company
- Military Police Platoon
- 1st Battalion, 505th Coast Artillery Regiment [att]
- 409th AAA Gun Battalion [att] [-2bat
- 441st AAA Automatic Weapons Battalion (Self-Propelled) [att]
- 3rd Platoon, 48th Quartermaster Company (Graves Registration) [att]

all told 20,000 men, a crossbow group consists of about 300 men max.

I do not accept the premise that the crossbowmen are not crossbowmen.... they are really partisons with molotov cocktails...

To apply such reality im afraid u will need to w8 for CIV 6 >_>
And no point complicating things as long AI is on the CIV 2 lvl.

Civ Call To Power had interesting pop-up like fight system of 2 armies.
Or maybe u want to enter a real time 3D battlefield every time combat happen like in Medieval Total war or Battelfield ?
Or armies like in Crusader Kings... Civ is lvl up of that, a bigger picture where everything is symbolic and u need to use ur imagination.
Just like a child play in an exciting play with lots of development in his head when playing with a toy car and maybe a doll ^^

And i like the molotov coctail explanation haha

 

[Lrd Dread]

to me, anything below mustketmen should not be able to inflict more than 1 pt of damage to riflemen or above. cannon should be able to do damage to riflemen and below and artillery and above should be able to kill everything.

Is there a way to do this??????

 

[MortalD]

Yes, but it would break the game.

 

[Thalassicus]

This is nice, but it does not address (at least I don't think it does) my original rant.

I addressed it in post #4. Which is more logical:

• Modern era crossbows represent guerrillas with medium-range weapons like mortars.
• Units are fighting with crossbows in the Modern era.

The first option makes more sense to me, and solves your problem.

 

[wobuffet]

Range and Blitz combined with a fleet of almost any 4+ ships can easily capture a City with virtually zero risk by just poking it down over many turns, as long as the City doesn't heal too many HP per turn.

Incidentally, could Defense buildings' descriptions include the formula for/give information for how many points a City heals? I know Defense buidlings boost it, but it's a convoluted system: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10029376#post10029376

 

[rfxmills]

The more I think about it, the more I come down on the side of dropping the range promotion altogether and just having base range increase when you get to artillery and battleships. There is something wrong about units being able to out range cities until this point.

I'm going round in circles here!

Regardless of what we do with the range promotion, changing ships to:

• Light ships with a 1hex range until destroyers and city penalty always.
• Heavy ships with a 2hex range until battleships no city penalty or bonus.

Light ships have the manoeuvrability, heavy ships have the range. Hopefully they won't be able to crush cities at will in early to mid eras. They can always get the siege promotion as well.

 

[Thalassicus]

One way is to compare the performance of 2 non-naval-leader caravels attacking the same city after reloading, in three different situations:

• Attacking with the range promotion.
• Attacking twice per turn with Blitz (75% damage).
• Attacking-and-retreating once per turn with Blitz.

I set up this test case in the world editor with 10 walled cities. In all three scenarios the caravels ended with 100% health (moving back to heal when necessary). It took # turns to bring the city to 1 health:

• 3 turns, caravels gained 18 xp.
• 3 turns, caravels gained 28 xp.
• 4 turns, caravels gained 28 xp.

The blitz promotion is better than the range promotion for ships besieging port cities. It's also slightly better for direct naval confrontations. Range has an advantage against inland cities. Healing doesn't matter since Caravels start with Recon 1. These numbers also indicate ship-vs-city strength should be lower.

 

[Txurce]

The more I think about it, the more I come down on the side of dropping the range promotion altogether and just having base range increase when you get to artillery and battleships. There is something wrong about units being able to out range cities until this point.

I agree with this.

I don't think light ships are presently so much faster than heavy ships that they should lose one tile of range for balance. (This should be addressed soon in G&K.)