Is there a way to....

[wobuffet]

I set up this test case in the world editor with 10 walled cities. In all three scenarios the caravels ended with 100% health (moving back to heal when necessary). It took # turns to bring the city to 1 health:

• 3 turns, caravels gained 18 xp.
• 3 turns, caravels gained 28 xp.
• 4 turns, caravels gained 28 xp.

The blitz promotion is better than the range promotion for ships besieging port cities. It's also slightly better for direct naval confrontations. Range has an advantage against inland cities. Healing doesn't matter since Caravels start with Recon 1. These numbers also indicate ship-vs-city strength should be lower.

That's with just 2 caravels? I've thought ships are too strong when attacking Cities for a while now, but 2 Caravels decimating a 10-Citizen City in 3 turns is madness.

 

[rfxmills]

I don't think light ships are presently so much faster than heavy ships that they should lose one tile of range for balance. (This should be addressed soon in G&K.)

Heavy ships require resources so should be better. All ships are pretty manoeuvrable at the moment, so it won't really change ship on ship combat, but means light ships won't be able to attack land units as easily.

 

[Txurce]

Good point. I'm with you on this as well.

 

[Thalassicus]

The more I think about it, the more I come down on the side of dropping the range promotion altogether and just having base range increase when you get to artillery and battleships. There is something wrong about units being able to out range cities until this point.

That proposal would not significantly change the situations I described earlier, because blitz is basically the same as range (move, attack, move back). We could theoretically remove both blitz and range... but if we do, promoting a ship might be rather uninteresting. They already have fewer promotion options than land units.

 

[MortalD]

If new expansion let AI fight on the sea and actually endanger our ships, most problems above with ships should get somehow solved.

Anyway i dont even wanna think on HOW MUCH work aw8 u when the expansion kick in...

 

[Txurce]

We could theoretically remove both blitz and range... but if we do, promoting a ship might be rather uninteresting.

This is an example of what I meant in another thread about OP vs fun. Nothing is more OP in VEM than naval promotions, given the AI's inability to engage only in the most elementary combat. But we added them because enough people wanted to play with boats (!). I get it, although my general leaning is to reduce the human advantage.

 

[Zaldron]

The more I think about it, the more I come down on the side of dropping the range promotion altogether and just having base range increase when you get to artillery and battleships. There is something wrong about units being able to out range cities until this point.

While I like this idea better than giving artillery range three via automatic range promotion, I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve here. In a typical game *maybe* one treb/cannon will get enough XP to get range 3 before artillery become available, so why do we want to remove additional flexibility, choice, and fun? Does one range three, non-indirect fire cannon break the game?

 

[Zaldron]

...We could theoretically remove both blitz and range... but if we do, promoting a ship might be rather uninteresting. They already have fewer promotion options than land units.

I actually wouldn't mind removing blitz and range from boats to help level the playing field from when you can bring a navy to bear and when you can't. 4-5 of any current level ship will always be able to smite down a city anyway regardless of extra promotions.

 

[wobuffet]

While I like this idea better than giving artillery range three via automatic range promotion, I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve here. In a typical game *maybe* one treb/cannon will get enough XP to get range 3 before artillery become available, so why do we want to remove additional flexibility, choice, and fun? Does one range three, non-indirect fire cannon break the game?

I suspect not too hard to get a Cannon up to Range, especially if one manages to successully XP farm a weak City a bit before capturing or razing it.

In my view, the fundamental issue with Range on siege units allowing them to outrange a City's own defense is primarily that it just feels exploitative. Blasting a City turn after turn with an untouchable siege unit risklessly is no challenge and therefore no fun.

 

[Thalassicus]

I just realized something really ironic. Making ships more and more like land units (city penalty, melee ships, etc) brings us closer back to Alpha Centauri, where land and sea units simply had a different chassis. Now we just need a unit workshop!

It really does puzzle me that Firaxis chose to regress so much from SMAC to Civ3... then gradually add stuff back in over the years. The majority of features in civ 3, 4, and 5 were originally in Alpha Centauri. Why go forwards, backwards, then forwards again?

 

[rfxmills]

That proposal would not significantly change the situations I described earlier, because blitz is basically the same as range (move, attack, move back). We could theoretically remove both blitz and range... but if we do, promoting a ship might be rather uninteresting. They already have fewer promotion options than land units.

I think we should keep the Blitz promotion, drop the Range promotion, and reduce the base range of light ships to 1 hex, until you get to destroyers when it go up to 2 hexes.

A light ship with Blitz, but only a 1 hex range wouldn't be able to attack and get out of range of the city. And a city penalty would make them quite vulnerable to city attacks? A heavy ship with Blitz could, but I don't have as big a problem with that as there role in the game is to pose a threat to land and cities from the sea.

 

[Thalassicus]

1-tile range light ships would make Triremes much less useful, and I don't think they get enough use as it is. If there's a problem with ships attacking cities, the straightforward solution is to change strength of ships vs cities.

 

[rfxmills]

In my view, the fundamental issue with Range on siege units allowing them to outrange a City's own defense is primarily that it just feels exploitative. Blasting a City turn after turn with an untouchable siege unit risklessly is no challenge and therefore no fun.

Basically what wobuffet said, is range really fun? A siege unit with range minimizes risk, shouldn't attacking a city have the chance of losing some units?

I just realized something really ironic. Making ships more and more like land units (city penalty, melee ships, etc) brings us closer back to Alpha Centauri, where land and sea units simply had a different chassis. Now we just need a unit workshop!

It really does puzzle me that Firaxis chose to regress so much from SMAC to Civ3... then gradually add stuff back in over the years. The majority of features in civ 3, 4, and 5 were originally in Alpha Centauri. Why go forwards, backwards, then forwards again?

SMAC is just a better concept, my flatmate still raves about the gravitational singularity planet busters and flooding continents to wipe out domeless cities!

 

[rfxmills]

1-tile range light ships would make Triremes much less useful, and I don't think they get enough use as it is. If there's a problem with ships attacking cities, the straightforward solution is to change strength of ships vs cities.

Triremes would still be useful against other triremes, but less useful against land units. And exploring with them to find more city states and civs to trade with shouldn't be overlooked.

 

[Thalassicus]

Not to mention smac had story!

On topic... triremes & caravels did get big buffs lately now that Barracks give them experience, instead of Harbors. Reducing their range by 1 should counterbalance that. Let's give it a try.

 

[Zaldron]

SMAC is just a better concept, my flatmate still raves about the gravitational singularity planet busters and flooding continents to wipe out domeless cities!

This just made my day - flooding domeless cities was one of my favorite strategies!

 

[Lrd Dread]

1-tile range light ships would make Triremes much less useful, and I don't think they get enough use as it is. If there's a problem with ships attacking cities, the straightforward solution is to change strength of ships vs cities.

Tiremes are pretty worthless in anything other than ancient world. To make them anything less (more) than worthless, changes what they were. A tireme should not be able to go against a frigate or better. A tireme should not be able to bombard a city. I would argue a caravel should not be able to bombard a city.....

This point would be moot if the game forced the AI to obsolete units when it changed timeframes.

And against the arguement that crossbowmen in the modern world are fighters with RPG's, wouldn't those be called skirmishers which is alread a modern unit?

 

[Txurce]

Tiremes are pretty worthless in anything other than ancient world. To make them anything less (more) than worthless, changes what they were. A tireme should not be able to go against a frigate or better. A tireme should not be able to bombard a city. I would argue a caravel should not be able to bombard a city.....

This point would be moot if the game forced the AI to obsolete units when it changed timeframes.

The point is moot anyway, because AI triremes do not fight frigates or better, and do not bombard cities.

 

[Thalassicus]

This point would be moot if the game forced the AI to obsolete units when it changed timeframes.

And against the arguement that crossbowmen in the modern world are fighters with RPG's, wouldn't those be called skirmishers which is alread a modern unit?

The AI uses the same obsolescence rules as the human.

Skirmishers are a Renaissance unit. The modern vanguard is Airborne, who are different from a group with RPGs. Vanguard units use short-range weapons. A crossbow in the modern era represents an irregular guerrilla unit equipped with mortars and other medium-range indirect fire weapons.

 

[MortalD]

U forgot about barbarian ships that can still fire 2 haxes away.

Unless thats intended. Personally don't care.