Is there such a thing as too much whipping?

[El Koeno]

Hi all,

In my latest game my economy failed to pick up. I usually don't have this problem so I started wondering why this could be. I wasn't too concerned as this was a warlord game, and pre-BtS I did well on prince.

Anyway, I could think of an easy reason: at the end of the medieval era I started colonial expansion, and did not manage to get my overseas empire independent soon enough (the cities were on small islands).

But another thing that I considered is whipping too much. This is something I usually do sparingly, but in this particular game I did use the whip quite heavily, including to build units in cottage heavy cities. Could this have slowed cottage evolution significantly? I don't really know, and I wonder if anybody has any experience with this.

As said, the prime reason for poor performance was overseas expansion, but I'm just wondering if should have taken it easy on the whip. (used it until late game, as my colony gave me a lot of sea-food, and I had Sid's Sushi).

 

[Ninjatrey]

Yes, you can whip too much. In Civ 4 Warlords I was playing as Russia and attacked Arabia and whiped for most of my troops and war in a deadlock on the easeyest difficulty level .Usualy I avoid whipping unless it can't be helped

 

[Morgrad]

Could this have slowed cottage evolution significantly?

Of course it could have - did it? I dunno, I'd have to see the game.

I usually whip to clear off an unhappy citizen and/or to go stomp an opponent with whipped units, but any time you're pulling citizens off a cottage you're slowing cottage evolution. If you whip again before the unhappiness wears off, you'd be crippling cottage growth.

Whipping is way to powerful to "avoid unless it can't be helped" - but you can certainly overdo it.

Keep in mind that happiness buildings are often much better to whip than to build normally.

 

[Gliese 581]

Remember to always have a few farms if you're lacking in food resources, even for a cottage city. The best way to get good production without using alot of mines etc is to have a decent regrowth so I would make sure that I work a few cottages at all times but also that I have a few food resources/farms for quicker regrowth. Later on when the city starts to become big and you are less reliant on the whip you can gradually transition your farms to cottages and quickly grow them with the help of emancipation.

Also, make sure that you've developed your cottages evenly when you get closer to the industrial era so that you get as big a boost from printing press and later on free speech as possible. It will cost you a little commerce early on but will pay off big time later.

 

[Refar]

Whiping usually becomes less cool, as your happy cap raises (through civics, religion, whatever). Whipping at happy cap becomes less efficient, as you need more food to regrow, while whipping well below happy cap would mean that you are not working many tiles you could work otherwise - probably imporved and productive tiles.

 

[DarkSchneider]

My girlfriend says no. I can whip as much as I want!

 

[popejubal]

There are two costs to whipping: and population loss.

There is one benefit to whipping: extra hammers.

Even in a city with lots of surplus food, at some point, you are going to stop growing or you are going to at least grow a whole lot slower. If I am at that point, then I can whip citizens that would otherwise be working a mine and I can compare the city with 1 population less to the city with the extra population working the mine.

Let's assume a City size 6 at its happy cap working a Grassland Mine: +3 hammers per turn and -1 food per turn (citizen eats 2 food below cap and 3 food when above the cap). You get 30 hammers for a chop and it takes 10 turns for the to go away, so if you will regrow that population in 10 turns, then you'll have lost no hammers or commerce while getting your 30 hammers all up front instead of having to wait those 10 turns. You will have lost whatever food you would have grown during that time, but keep in mind that you would be growing at a -1 or -2 per turn rate (or even -5 :food per turn if you started above the cap and grew another population point during those 10 turns) when not whipping here compared to the post whip food per turn rate.

In production cities, it is usually worth whipping a building that you want early and it is almost always worth whipping a building that produces points. I really can't think of any scenario that you'll run into during a normal game when whipping your granary isn't worthwhile if you're running the slavery civic.

Remember that you're almost always going to work your highest food tiles first and that whatever population that you'll whip away is going to be working your worst tile(s). Since each population point consumes 2 or 3 food and since each population point also increases the amount of food needed to grow to the next level, you will usually find that you can regrow a whipped population point in under 10 turns even in a city that might have taken 20-30 turns to grow to the next point before whipping. Add in the fact that you get half of your food back when you regrow your population and the whip is exceptionally powerful in cities with a healthy food surplus.

If we consider a city that is all riverside grassland cottages, however, the situation changes dramatically. These cities grow at 2 per turn unless you farm one or more of the tiles and each turn you spend not working a tile is not just a turn of commerce lost, but also a turn of gottage>hamlet>village>town conversion time lost. It's still pretty much always worth whipping a granary in these cities and it's pretty much a given that you should whip granting buildings in these cities when you are about to grow past your cap, but otherwise, you want to leave them alone. I don't care if you are getting a ton of out of the town, the population loss of the library is going to outweigh the gain that the building gives.

In short: whipping is usually a bad idea in cottage commerce cities except when you are whipping a building when you were about to go over your cap. Additionaly, whipping a granary is almost always a good idea. Whipping in production cities is usually a good idea, especially buildings and granaries. Whipping in high food, low production cities is absolutely essential and is a cornerstone of success for Specialist Economy games.

 

[El Koeno]

Thanks for the input guys.

 

[nbcman]

VoiceOfUnreason did an excellent Strategy article on whip mechanics here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193659

There are also crossreferences to other articles on whipping on that thread. This article is a must for learning the fine art of whipping in the game.

 

[6K Man]

Eventually you have to let the cities grow. Smaller cities regrow pretty fast after whipping, so it's a great early-game tactic (especially due to the happiness cap). But as cottages mature and more and more land is otherwise improved around your cities, you're giving up too much by sacrificing citizens that will take ages to grow back.

 

[El Koeno]

VoiceOfUnreason did an excellent Strategy article on whip mechanics here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193659

There are also crossreferences to other articles on whipping on that thread. This article is a must for learning the fine art of whipping in the game.

Great article, thanks. I don't think I will really absorb it all, but at least I will think about whipping more carefully in the future, to maximize its benefits and minimize the costs. Until now I've just pressed the rush button when I felt like it, not giving it too much thought.