Is Trump the 2nd Truman?

[BenitoChavez]

Nixon and Bush were dangers to others. Trump is a danger to us.

I fail to see how that is an argument in favor of Bush and Nixon

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I fail to see how that is an argument in favor of Bush and Nixon

It's not, that's not the point he's making. He's explicitly saying they aren't good and they did terrible things. The difference that matters to a lot of us (as selfish and awful as it is to admit) is that now we're all in danger, not just other people. It feels terrible even typing that but it's true and it would be true of any other group of people. It's no defense whatsoever of our other demons, he's just pointing out where the fear many of us face is coming from because yeah, next to a war it doesn't seem consequential. But it is for those of us who are going to have to pick up the pieces left from the eventual fallout.

I agree with both Lexicus and Cutlass on this, they are not mutually exclusive positions. And I don't even know that Cutlass even agrees with or holds the opinion he clarified - he was just trying to clarify.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I know. I can't even think about that because I just don't have the headspace for it with everything else going on. I'm pretty sure if DC gets hit with a MIRV I'm in the instant-vaporization zone so

I'm in this bad location where I'm not close enough to a big target to be instantly vaporized but I'm close enough to die a slow and painful death from fallout.

I'm not really sure that's true, honestly. Can you explain some of your reasoning?

Not to put words in his mouth but here's my take on it in no particular order
Short Term:
1) Millions of unnecessary deaths over the next few years as the dismantling of our health care system for the poor accelerates
2) Much worse health outcomes for a large portion of the population. Mothers and children hit the worst as they tend to be poor and lose out as Obamacare collapses and face the double-whammy of the loss of social support programs like head start, WIC, etc. This also pushes millions more into poverty and prevents millions from rising out of it.
3) Unnecessary and aggressive trade disputes raise prices on goods and services while doing nothing to bolster historically low wages
4) The direct threat of megadeath from WWIII
5) The direct threat of expanded or new wars that will kill thousands of our youth and millions of innocent people overseas
6) A potential collapse of our federal government into total dysfunction and disarray
7) Unnecessary incarcerations spike as the war on drugs is fully reignited, consigning another generation of black men to prison. Note: With the exception of the opioid epidemic to an extent as lenient policies are being tried. Guess what color junkies tend to be these days?
8) Thousands of additional gun deaths as a result of continued adherence to NRA propoganda and as police feel emboldened to continue drawing their weapons as a first choice
9) Millions of families torn apart as immigration raids step up and new laws are passed to further target basically anyone of non-European extraction.


Medium Term:
1) Millions of people sickened or killed as environmental regulations are removed and we return to 1960's-era environmental policies
2) The economy plateaus as millions of millennials are burdened with an historic level of college debt and astronomical housing prices in most major markets. Wealth is not going to be created as fast as it as siphoned off into the pockets of billionaires and corporations.
3) The economy is hit further because as economic regulations are unshackled, predatory practices target wealthier segments because the poor and young can only be exploited to a point
4) The housing market compounds the economic problems as we're moving toward a system where housing is not treated as a basic necessity foremost but as an investment vehicle for the wealthy and a mechanism of wealth transfer from the poor and middle classes up the economic ladder
5) Longer term dysfunction of our government even if it avoids collapse
6) Conditions for additional upheaval around the world are fueled by aggressive and thoughtless interventions. This returns to us as a continuation of the campaign of terror on all western countries.

Long Term:
1) The population ages very rapidly since the millenials stopped having babies in order to pay back loans and make rent. Oh and all of the immigrants were evicted so their babies don't live here.
2) Our window to avoid complete environmental catastrophe closes; global warming marches relentlessly forward and millions suffer and die and economies crash
3) Educational, health care and housing markets go through major upheaval due to the long term effects of deregulation and new laws that helped the wealthy drain the economy of vitality
4) The robots take everyone's job and we had no plan in place to deal with the transition. Major upheaval world wide.
5) But hey we get to the point where we spend 99 cents of every tax dollar on the military so at least we'll have cool Mecha robots




The government has massive amounts of inertia. So much so that there is a very real threat that decisions and actions that Trump and Co make now will be haunting us for decades. I'll just point out that after Johnson and Nixon dramatically and unprecedentedly expanded Presidential war powers, Congress passed laws to reign that in. These laws never took and we're still dealing with that failure and the actions of Johnson and Nixon indirectly as it led to our unilateral invasion of Iraq and continued bombing campaigns world wide.

So yeah, just imagine what fun new precedents Trump is setting that will never die. Personally I can't wait for the Mechas.

 

[Cutlass]

I'm not really sure that's true, honestly. Can you explain some of your reasoning?

To add to what Hobbs is saying, conservatives like to tell this lie that they are 'small government'. If you're paying attention here you can see just how not true that is. Sessions as AG is a major increase in the us of government power. We now have a governing leadership which sees the control of government as the means to control the population. That's really never happened before in the US. Liberals may be 'big government', but they see government as a tool to solve problems and help people. Conservatives see big government as a way to enrich themselves and control everyone else. Maybe they ain't quite fascist, but they are definitely authoritarian.

In the long run this means that the government is far more of a danger to the American people than it has been before. Fact is that the core concept behind the US Constitution was the understanding by the Founding Fathers that a nation's government is more of a danger to the citizens of that nation than foreign powers are, short of losing a war to the point of being occupied and annexed. In which case the new government becomes the primary threat to the people of that nation.

The Cold War was an existential threat to the existence of the US. And much more than that. But during the Cold War we didn't use that as an excuse to cripple Constitutional rights. We even took the opportunity to expand them. But the War on Terror is different. First, it is not an existential threat. It's really not that much of a threat at all. But it is being treated as an existential threat, and it is being used to curtail the Constitution in ways that have never before been contemplated.

Now this was bad enough under Bush, and Obama gets low marks on the issue as well. But now we're in a position where this is getting really scary. And it's not just Trump and Sessions. Stealing a Supreme Court seat from Obama (yes, this was not Trump's actions, although he took advantage of it) has very likely reshaped the Court for a generation to come. Which means a rollback of the Constitution itself for a generation to come. People underestimate just how important the courts are to how the nation functions.

We have never seen the American government unleashed against the American people. Now we just may.

 

[caketastydelish]

Trump and Truman both start with Trum, so that enough to convince me.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

the "Captain Kirk period" (Shoot first, ask later)

I look forward to Valka correcting you on this

 

[civvver]

I'm not sure the exact mechanism but yes they can pass this with just 50%+1. In fact just yesterday the House did in fact pass a procedural vote to do exactly this.

Dems in CA and NY don't have enough sway in the legislature to stop this. There are a few republicans from affected states who are grumbling but it's not clear they will be able to stop this. I would like to think that the current crop of Republicans are too incompetent to pull this off (see Obamacare) but I think they will. They are already making bold-face lies about the tax cuts to cover their own butts and people are in general too uninformed and or stupid to actually look into this and then follow up by calling their representatives.

It's awful how the Republican leadership can come out and tell direct, verifiable lies about this (Rich people won't get a tax cut; This is a middle class tax cut; Taxes won't be raised for anyone by this; This won't increase the deficit) and people actually believe it.

Also, your very first sentence is incorrect. This is going to increase taxes for millions of poor and middle class people across the country but the majority of Republicans know this and are already on board with it. It's probably time to give up on the fantasy that Republicans care about anyone other than the rich when it comes to tax cuts. They'll only do enough to help poor/middle class people to the extent that they actually have to in order to meet their agenda of bolstering the 1% and they are willing and able to just straight up lie about what they are doing.

I think you're wrong, republicans don't care about rich or middle class, they care about votes and staying in power for power's sake and to make themselves filthy rich. I basically just described every politician regardless of party or affiliation. But my point is, the middle class is not as stupid as everyone thinks. Remember how they talked about that silent majority that got trump elected? Well I'm telling you there are tons of middle and upper middle class white collar families who do their own taxes on turbo tax and will absolutely know if they see an increase. People who went to college or trade school are married with kids and have one or two incomes in the family and make between 50 and 150k in their household. This is a huge number of people and they will vote out everyone who votes to raise taxes on them during the mid terms. Of course the republicans might not pass anything before mid terms... but these people will remember who raised their taxes.

There are a lot more middle class voters than rich voters so I don't think they can be neglected. Poor probably can, cus they don't pay much or any taxes anyway and less of them vote.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Don't worry, they're already working on vanquishing the abomination known as the "Middle Class" as we speak.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I think you're wrong, republicans don't care about rich or middle class, they care about votes and staying in power for power's sake and to make themselves filthy rich. I basically just described every politician regardless of party or affiliation. But my point is, the middle class is not as stupid as everyone thinks. Remember how they talked about that silent majority that got trump elected? Well I'm telling you there are tons of middle and upper middle class white collar families who do their own taxes on turbo tax and will absolutely know if they see an increase. People who went to college or trade school are married with kids and have one or two incomes in the family and make between 50 and 150k in their household. This is a huge number of people and they will vote out everyone who votes to raise taxes on them during the mid terms. Of course the republicans might not pass anything before mid terms... but these people will remember who raised their taxes.

There are a lot more middle class voters than rich voters so I don't think they can be neglected. Poor probably can, cus they don't pay much or any taxes anyway and less of them vote.

Yeah but you pointed out the problem right there - sure people may figure out there taxes went up after the fact but they sure aren't doing anything to stop it now. As long as the state propoganda ministry keeps repeating the likes of the President, a lot of people are just going along with it

 

[civvver]

Yeah but you pointed out the problem right there - sure people may figure out there taxes went up after the fact but they sure aren't doing anything to stop it now. As long as the state propoganda ministry keeps repeating the likes of the President, a lot of people are just going along with it

what can you do about it now other than call your reps and tell them they're voted out if they vote for it? That's a pretty empty threat, the real action is at the voting booth.

 

[r16]

we hear the generals in the White House have asked greater powers and stuff in extending "warmaking" without political debate , you know , as Trump wastes the US State right and left . Nobody ever learns anything from history , plus we are these abonimable Turks who don't know nothing on anything but pay attention to this decade of New Turkey . Checks and Balances are a cool thing to have , and Peace a good thing easily protected by a requirement to explain why there has to be a war and people next door or next neighbourhood have to die . The New Turkey abolished kinda all and it's like some epic disaster with everything ending up the wrong way . But then one might trust the American exceptionalism , as much as one prays to God and everything will be all tight and right . What happens , just as a hypothetical , that people will accept a shooting war with open arms ? One America has not prepared the battlefield with the gloriously glorious Bin Ladin ? Aren't those generals the ones have been eating crow once or twice this year , with making "peaceful" overtures to North Korea ?

 

[Lexicus]

We have never seen the American government unleashed against the American people. Now we just may.

I'm sorry, could you repeat this? I couldn't quite hear it over the sound of black people laughing.

 

[Broken_Erika]

I'm sorry, could you repeat this? I couldn't quite hear it over the sound of black people laughing.

Not to mention the Japanese.......................

 

[Cutlass]

I'm sorry, could you repeat this? I couldn't quite hear it over the sound of black people laughing.

While true, an unpopular minority does not equal the whole populations. Second, that was overwhelmingly the state governments, not the US government. There's a reason Black Americans tend to trust the feds more than the states.

 

[Lexicus]

Not to put words in his mouth but here's my take on it in no particular order
Short Term:
1) Millions of unnecessary deaths over the next few years as the dismantling of our health care system for the poor accelerates
2) Much worse health outcomes for a large portion of the population. Mothers and children hit the worst as they tend to be poor and lose out as Obamacare collapses and face the double-whammy of the loss of social support programs like head start, WIC, etc. This also pushes millions more into poverty and prevents millions from rising out of it.
3) Unnecessary and aggressive trade disputes raise prices on goods and services while doing nothing to bolster historically low wages
4) The direct threat of megadeath from WWIII
5) The direct threat of expanded or new wars that will kill thousands of our youth and millions of innocent people overseas
6) A potential collapse of our federal government into total dysfunction and disarray
7) Unnecessary incarcerations spike as the war on drugs is fully reignited, consigning another generation of black men to prison. Note: With the exception of the opioid epidemic to an extent as lenient policies are being tried. Guess what color junkies tend to be these days?
8) Thousands of additional gun deaths as a result of continued adherence to NRA propoganda and as police feel emboldened to continue drawing their weapons as a first choice
9) Millions of families torn apart as immigration raids step up and new laws are passed to further target basically anyone of non-European extraction.

So here, I'm not seeing any fundamental way that Trump is different from what has gone before. Worse in many ways than Obama, sure, but there's nothing here that has never been a factor in the past (which you seem to acknowledge with e.g. "another generation" of black men).

Medium Term:
1) Millions of people sickened or killed as environmental regulations are removed and we return to 1960's-era environmental policies
2) The economy plateaus as millions of millennials are burdened with an historic level of college debt and astronomical housing prices in most major markets. Wealth is not going to be created as fast as it as siphoned off into the pockets of billionaires and corporations.
3) The economy is hit further because as economic regulations are unshackled, predatory practices target wealthier segments because the poor and young can only be exploited to a point
4) The housing market compounds the economic problems as we're moving toward a system where housing is not treated as a basic necessity foremost but as an investment vehicle for the wealthy and a mechanism of wealth transfer from the poor and middle classes up the economic ladder
5) Longer term dysfunction of our government even if it avoids collapse
6) Conditions for additional upheaval around the world are fueled by aggressive and thoughtless interventions. This returns to us as a continuation of the campaign of terror on all western countries.

Again, I don't think your'e wrong on any of these points. But I'm not seeing anything here that is fundamentally new. All of these processes have been ongoing since before Trump took office (ongoing under Democratic presidents and Congresses too, I might add).

Long Term:
1) The population ages very rapidly since the millenials stopped having babies in order to pay back loans and make rent. Oh and all of the immigrants were evicted so their babies don't live here.
2) Our window to avoid complete environmental catastrophe closes; global warming marches relentlessly forward and millions suffer and die and economies crash
3) Educational, health care and housing markets go through major upheaval due to the long term effects of deregulation and new laws that helped the wealthy drain the economy of vitality
4) The robots take everyone's job and we had no plan in place to deal with the transition. Major upheaval world wide.
5) But hey we get to the point where we spend 99 cents of every tax dollar on the military so at least we'll have cool Mecha robots

Starting to sound like a broken record but again I'm not seeing anything here that wasn't a factor before Trump.

The government has massive amounts of inertia. So much so that there is a very real threat that decisions and actions that Trump and Co make now will be haunting us for decades. I'll just point out that after Johnson and Nixon dramatically and unprecedentedly expanded Presidential war powers, Congress passed laws to reign that in. These laws never took and we're still dealing with that failure and the actions of Johnson and Nixon indirectly as it led to our unilateral invasion of Iraq and continued bombing campaigns world wide.

So yeah, just imagine what fun new precedents Trump is setting that will never die. Personally I can't wait for the Mechas.

Well, I'm honestly not sure what "new" precedents Trump is setting. The issue I'm having here is that I'm trying to emphasize the continuities between the Trump administration and the rest of American history, where cutlass is trying to say that he represents a break in continuity and something new and dangerous. And honestly, I feel like what you've written here bolsters that point rather than making the case that Trump is something uniquely dangerous. The one area where I think Trump is breaking new ground is in personal, self-enriching corruption; but that is less of an issue than many of the other (as I see it) systemic problems that have been ongoing for decades under governments controlled by both parties. And of course if we want to "zoom out", so to speak, there is virtually no problem existing today that wasn't a lot worse before the Civil War. Given that the federal government was fully involved in enforcing slavery (indeed, was in thrall to the Slave Power until the election of Lincoln) I don't think I can agree with Cutlass' point about the federal government typically not being involved in hurting Americans, though I would admit that point is more valid if we consider only the post-1945 period of US history.

To add to what Hobbs is saying, conservatives like to tell this lie that they are 'small government'. If you're paying attention here you can see just how not true that is.

I've been saying this for years, actually. Indeed, I believe that anyone who believes in markets and private property cannot claim to be for small government, as the apparatus of capitalism requires a powerful, activist state to maintain. Attempts to make the government smaller result in crises, which then result in either activist government a la the New Deal or Big Government a la the Machtergreifung.

But during the Cold War we didn't use that as an excuse to cripple Constitutional rights.

Well, not on as large a scale as we are now, certainly. But again this whole point you're making about the War On Terror would seem to support my point. The War on Terror and associated fascistic laws and policies came about under George W Bush, a mainstream Republican whose reputation is now undergoing something of a rehabilitation among mainstream liberals, not under Donald Trump.

We have never seen the American government unleashed against the American people. Now we just may.

I'm sorry for the snarky one-liner response to this which is all I offered before. But I really do think the American government has been unleashed on the American people before. Have you ever read A People's History of the United States? That book taught me a lot about how the government has treated Americans quite poorly in the past.

 

[onejayhawk]

1) Millions of unnecessary deaths over the next few years as the dismantling of our health care system for the poor accelerates.

You could have stopped there. When you start with something so obviously false, the rest is suspect.

Trump and Truman both start with Trum, so that enough to convince me.

I was going to say it was alphabetically true, but yours is better.

J

 

[Goliht]

If Trump, whom I only personally know because he once almost gave me a job working on a golf course as a tractor grass machinist cuttery (probably not a word I know) person. A lawnmower man... Unfortuneately, his bid to build said golf course, hotels and gambling dens never worked out and was defeated by a local vote of Scottish/Aberdonian voters. I don't blame them, even though the money was good. Yes your el presidente almost gave me a job..

But I'm derailing.. If Trump is up there with Nixon or Truman.. does this mean we might see him as the next Leader of the Americans in Civ 7?

 

[Lexicus]

If Trump, whom I only personally know because he once almost gave me a job working on a golf course as a tractor grass machinist cuttery (probably not a word I know) person. A lawnmower man... Unfortuneately, his bid to build said golf course, hotels and gambling dens never worked out and was defeated by a local vote of Scottish/Aberdonian voters. I don't blame them, even though the money was good. Yes your el presidente almost gave me a job..

But I'm derailing.. If Trump is up there with Nixon or Truman.. does this mean we might see him as the next Leader of the Americans in Civ 7?

If Trump is the leader of the US in Civ 7, assuming the game is worth buying (which it won't be judging by the trajectory we've been on since civ 5) I will play all my games in a self-imposed state of Always War against him. Yeah I be that petty

 

[hobbsyoyo]

So here, I'm not seeing any fundamental way that Trump is different from what has gone before. Worse in many ways than Obama, sure, but there's nothing here that has never been a factor in the past (which you seem to acknowledge with e.g. "another generation" of black men).



Again, I don't think your'e wrong on any of these points. But I'm not seeing anything here that is fundamentally new. All of these processes have been ongoing since before Trump took office (ongoing under Democratic presidents and Congresses too, I might add).



Starting to sound like a broken record but again I'm not seeing anything here that wasn't a factor before Trump.




Well, I'm honestly not sure what "new" precedents Trump is setting. The issue I'm having here is that I'm trying to emphasize the continuities between the Trump administration and the rest of American history, where cutlass is trying to say that he represents a break in continuity and something new and dangerous. And honestly, I feel like what you've written here bolsters that point rather than making the case that Trump is something uniquely dangerous. The one area where I think Trump is breaking new ground is in personal, self-enriching corruption; but that is less of an issue than many of the other (as I see it) systemic problems that have been ongoing for decades under governments controlled by both parties. And of course if we want to "zoom out", so to speak, there is virtually no problem existing today that wasn't a lot worse before the Civil War. Given that the federal government was fully involved in enforcing slavery (indeed, was in thrall to the Slave Power until the election of Lincoln) I don't think I can agree with Cutlass' point about the federal government typically not being involved in hurting Americans, though I would admit that point is more valid if we consider only the post-1945 period of US history.



I've been saying this for years, actually. Indeed, I believe that anyone who believes in markets and private property cannot claim to be for small government, as the apparatus of capitalism requires a powerful, activist state to maintain. Attempts to make the government smaller result in crises, which then result in either activist government a la the New Deal or Big Government a la the Machtergreifung.



Well, not on as large a scale as we are now, certainly. But again this whole point you're making about the War On Terror would seem to support my point. The War on Terror and associated fascistic laws and policies came about under George W Bush, a mainstream Republican whose reputation is now undergoing something of a rehabilitation among mainstream liberals, not under Donald Trump.



I'm sorry for the snarky one-liner response to this which is all I offered before. But I really do think the American government has been unleashed on the American people before. Have you ever read A People's History of the United States? That book taught me a lot about how the government has treated Americans quite poorly in the past.

A lot of those points were actually getting better under Obamacare (health care, climate change mitigation) or were at worst stagnate (threat of megadeath). He may not have been able to take the country as far forward as I would have liked but then again a lot of the reason he couldn't was because of Republican obstruction. He even tried to work out nuclear weapon reduction deals with the Russians but the Republicans shot him down. On so many of those issues though there was modest improvement. I'm not giving him a pass for his failures or even saying he went far enough on his successes. But things were objectively better on many fronts and trending upward.

Now it's easy to point to just about every Republican president on these issues and say that when they were in charge, these issues went backward. That's certainly true. What's unique about Trump is that he's undoing any progress on all of these issues all at once. Not just incrementally rolling things back but taking the most hardcore regressive stances he can. It's appalling.

And as you point out, he brings an obscene level of personal corruption, treason and self-interest to the table which means that many of these problems take on an even more sinister aspect. He's not going to destroy the economy because it helps wealthy donors, he's going to destroy it because it will help himself. That's a new low for this country and dangerous water to tread into. Unfortunately the Republicans are so hell bent on maintaining power that there is little push back. His larger bills have stalled but only because a smattering of Senators that are (belatedly and unconvincingly) taking a principled stand. The Republican control of the Senate is thin enough that only a few can stop the most egregiousness Trump transgressions. But overall their power holdings in all three branches of government at the state and federal level means that all of the acts of corruption, captured regulatory framework et al goes unchecked.

Moreover, the Republicans have proven willing to not only twist the government to their ends through legal means (stealing SCOTUS nominations, obstruction, gerrymandering, etc), they have proven to aid, abet and take part in straight up treason with the country's biggest enemy to gain and maintain power.

This again adds a dangerous new aspect to all of the problems list before. I guess I'm saying I don't disagree with your assessment that most of these problems are not new, however, the degree of difference between how these problems presented themselves in the past relative to now represents a paradigm shift.

 

[Lexicus]

I don't dispute that Trump is, in some sense, unprecedented. I mean, he's taking the poopstorm to new levels. But he represents more an acceleration of already ongoing processes than the start of new processes. If that makes sense.