Man it's cool to hear some other people talking up the Mongols for a change
gettingfat said:
The Europeans historicians simply couldn't accept they were beaten by one of the greatest military organizations in the world history, and painted them as poorly equipped blood thirsty barbarians who succeeded merely by outnumbering their own armies. Keshiks are in fact pretty tuned down in Civ3 and 4.
They would travel with about 5 horses per person too and would put dummies on them also in order to make it look like there were more than there was. That may have had something to do with it too.
Magfo said:
Yes, especially after the mongolian army marched into London, just after conquering Rome, that was when they started changing history.
Remember that although the mongolians conquered vast areas most of it was sparsely populated. (apart from China)
You get the good old dilemma, a unbalanced army can't be succesful in the long run.
Sadly (or happily, depending on your perspective), that will be a question that will never get answered but Genghis had something that the Roman leaders lacked, or at the very least, had much less of. All though Genghis had Cavalry and Horse Archers, he still managed to take down Chinese cities with massive walled fortifications: He adapted and learnt as he needed to. Going from a nomadic horse driven lifestyle to becoming masters of seige says to me that he would have adapted - as he allways did - to his enemy.
Genghis was also not driven by pride or honour. He - and the Mongols in general - had no problem with fleeing if the situation got out of hand. There was a time where they were routed (I think it was his son who was leading). They all fled in different directions, regrouped and attacked and won. This says to me that if they were to have mis-planned or made errors in judgement, they would have fled and regrouped.
So, based on him having no problem learning and implementing totally foreign new systems of war, not having a problem with fleeing in a bad situation and having them constantly learn and develop new strategies, I wouldn't blink at all if history all of a sudden just changed and suggested that Genghis had taken out the Roman empire simply because in the worst case scenario he wouldn't send his troops recklessly to their deaths and they had the speed to adapt to an unknown situation. They also had nothing to loose. Everything that mattered to them and could allow them to fight was able to move at horse speed. The fact that Rome - like all empires - had something to defend, whether it be land, pasture, trade and supply routes, cities, population, etc means that they would have had trouble with defending against the Mongols. As Sun Tzu states, if you attempt to defend all areas, you'll become weak in all areas. Also, attack that which cannot be defended. The Roman army couldn't defend everything and as such, the Mongols would simply be content with pillaging and burning what the Romans
couldn't defend. If that bothered the Romans to the point where they broke ranks, they'd get picked off. If their discipline caused them not to break ranks, then the Mongols would just continue to destroy, pillage and burn. The Mongols had the discipline and freedom to be opportunistic but they weren't interested in dying for it.
I personally have no doubt Genghis could have taken down the Roman empire. The interesting variable here though - which was demonstrated in China - is
how long it would have taken him. China took forever to take down because he couldn't get past the walls for a while. He resorted to opportunism until he had the means to develop the necessary equipment that allowed him to succeed.
Regarding the Praetorian in the game: If you look at both the Roman leaders, the only military bonuses they get is really the Praetorian. Once the Praetorian is obsolete, they really have no warmonger bonus (except Imperialistic's Great General bonus). Even their favourite civics are not military minded. The Roman leaders seem to be set up like normal builders except they have a warmonger UU which obsoletes at Macemen.
would be fine
