Hi
@Kyro
I would kindly invite you to open and examine any of the numerous savegames I've posted with quick victories (e.g. 2x Gilgamesh, list goes on, and theres many more I can post) and have a look at T70-100 as well as final saves.
As one of those people with good turn times I can tell you this: your claim that these turn times are achieved through multiple exploits is simply not correct.
Kyro said:
The first thing that is most central to the speed method that some would advocate is taking cities, because it directly circumvents the rising costs of settlers and districts.
Taking cities and war has been a staple of Civilization games.
As for rising settler costs - I build a minimum of 6-10 of my own settlers. At this points settlers require 300+ production to complete.
Doing this is very challenging and to do it quickly - I use the 50% production card for settlers combined with selective chops in a number of my cities. Both of these are absolutely valid mechanics. This takes place from turns 30-70.
Kyro said:
The second is boosted overflow chops that allows districts etc. to be rushed out using production not meant for what that card is supposed to be boosting.
Again, look at my savegames and you will see that like 99% of the time - I do not actually use this mechanic at all. Again, I might use it to speed up my first district in the capital - to hit the boost. Assuming capital has enough woods for a later spaceport. In many cases (most actually - I save the woods for chopping the spaceport.
You will also see that, except in exactly two games to explore this strategy - none use the walls overflow.Finish times with walls overflow are pretty much in line with those that do not.
In any case - the effect of these chops are negligible. If this mechanic is removed - it will increase turn times in some of the games by a few turns and thats it. Negligible.
Kyro said:
Thirdly, the near free gold from the public transport policy that rewards players for just placing neighborhood districts without a need to complete them.
Look at my saves and you will see that I never - ever - used this card to get gold. Never.
Kyro said:
The first strategy ignores the need to build anything for yourself and takes full advantage of both the AI's 80% boosted production rates to build districts and wonders for you, and its complete inability to wage war. A combination of these two ingredients results in free cities built nearly twice the rate the human can. Can you imagine how useless this makes the building and investment part of Civ 6? Why bother placing cities at good spots? Why bother growing them? Why bother investing? Why plan for the long-term?
Look at my saves and you will see that I have Turn 138 science victory on Prince. Prince.Using what production boosts?
On the other hand - on higher difficulties - anything that the AI builds comes handy. The problem is - it for the most part AI builds totally useless infrastructure. Bunch of holy sites and encampments which actually cost me gold. A stonehenge? Hanging gardens? Arguably its better since the last patch - so there is sometimes a campus or two, or a theater square or two. Do the math - an you will see that this itself makes no difference.
The AI normally doesnt have time to make any actually useful wonders before I finish the game - so very little benefits are derived there.
In fact - have a look at the savegames and you will see that I captured most cities before AI has built the first district.
I will admit that AI does build a useful thing - the watermill - which comes handy to boost construction - and which I usually never even bother to repair.
In any case - I have tried quick and peaceful science victories. And these are actually doable in the T160-T170 turns range, on the condition that you are not squeezed by the AI and have room to expand.
As for war - I would love if Civ guys invested more resources into making a better AI and increasing the challenge.
Furthermore, look at the 8-10 cities I make and settle - and you will see that each has been planned carefully to get a maximum return on investment. That cities have been placed on T38 for example so that I can achieve a particular goal on turn 138 - with careful planning to develop these cities to achieve these goals.
Getting quick science victories requires ridiculous amount of long-term planning.
Do I need to say that I'm doing this while at the same time planning a bunch of wars and developing an incredible gold economy?
Kyro said:
The second is an exploit because as stated earlier, players are using policy cards for a purpose other than what the card is used for. Did you really want walls or a galley? No you wanted something else that the boosted production overflow will grant you. Is that what the policy card is meant for?
Perhaps you make a valid point, perhaps not - but again, it does not make any noticeable difference. You will also see that I never even make a galley. I did an experiment or two with walls and thats it. Everything else that is chopped uses chop with its own policy (if any). And most chops actually go into districts and buildings without any boosts.
Kyro said:
The second is an exploit because as stated earlier, players are using policy cards for a purpose other than what the card is used for. Did you really want walls or a galley? No you wanted something else that the boosted production overflow will grant you. Is that what the policy card is meant for?
Kyro said:
The third is an exploit because players are placing Neighborhoods just to earn Gold and nothing else. They place them without completing them. Which means Neighborhoods just became an excuse for free gold. Were Neighborhoods meant to be free sources of Gold? This snowballs with warmongering because AI spams farms and when you conquered those cities all of those farms just became free gold. This nullifies any need for commercial hubs and any planning required to earn gold by the turn.
I agree with the point that Neighborhoods are not meant to be free sources of gold. I can't understand why this card is there in the first place. Hence, I've never used it.
On the other hand - saying that it nullifies the need for commercial hubs and planning is incorrect - as ridiculous amounts of planning are put into maximising the gold per turn. And in all my games - the gold is the bottleneck.
Kyro said:
Of course it takes additional mastery of the game on top of all these to actually achieve those turn times but I have never denied credit for anything done in the spirit of the game.
Thank you for that. My thoughts above are just trying to make a point that these quick turn times are all achieved within the spirit of the game. More importantly - it requires a huge amount of forward planning, investment, development etc.
And I don't believe that the boost to first district which I sometimes have in my games (from chopping last turn slinger) makes a difference.
As far as the rest of your comments go (the god etc...) I don't think they apply to me - nor do I think I attack people on doing something wrong and believing I'm doing it right. So don't want to get into that.
Just wanted to take a chance to clarify a misconception that these victories are result of exploits.