It's official: Mali is in as a civ. -snicker-
- Thread starter Dearmad
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ogmoir
Arctic Troops
Maybe not more than Mongolia, but more than many of the 31 in C3C.
Anyway, this has already been discussed in the Mali thread: [thread]119101[/thread]
Anyway, this has already been discussed in the Mali thread: [thread]119101[/thread]
Dearmad said:
explain away then, dear Dearmad; I eagerlly await what profound enlightenment your going to shed upon me of previouslly unkown influnces that the glorious Mongols gave to an awestruck world other then yet another batch of bloody barbarians from the steppe who couldnt even keep thier own culture.
Xineoph
Prince
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I think they should add Ethiopia as well into Africa, as it was the only country in Africa to escape colonization, defeated a European Power to do that...and decisively at that, plus of course the fact they have lots of history, biblical and non-biblical. =)
Dearmad said:No, first you explain how they did not influence china and europe.
easy; all they did was impose thier rule; they adopted local languages, cultures, people, and within a generation, they werent even a significant army any longer, they had to rely on local peoples; combien this with internal tension, and it slittle wonder that the Mongol broke up; thier was no true unfying factor, as they barelly had a common culture; once emersed int eh realms of other civlizations, they ditched what they had, and took up the traditions of other, eventually marrying so throughlly, that no trace of them actually lingers in most fo the lands they conqoured.
thier only contributuion was allowing the peaceful travel of Marco Polo to the orient
A) you dont have a clue about economics, do you
when somthing is commodity in a particuler, such as Gold in the Niger area, it dosent have a great deal of local value; yet, the mali were still rich- why were they still rich? because they were a source for megalithic trade routes that stretched into Europe and Mid east liek no others, and were ten fold more important then the sil rout which the Mongols monopolized ever wasB)So much Niger gold coem fourth thats its estimated that well over a third of ALL middle age gold came from it, and the fortune of natiosn was dependent on it; th ebullion market woudl collapse for a period because so much gold came fourth into the middle east
C)The world renowned site of Timbuktu (immortilized int he phrase "From Zanzibar to Timbuktu) was renowned site for Islamic scholars, and they came from all over the islamic world to go attend the schools thier; this means, if you didnt figure it out already, that Sahel region scholarship effected, if minorlly at the fringes, everyone from the west coast of Africa to Central Asia, and down right into Indonsia; a land area that dawrfs the Mongol empire, and is only surpassed by the evolution of Roman culture into today's western civlization
D)the king sof the region undertook a number of military campaigns inwhich to extend the influnce of Islam in Africa, somthing that, one might note, has had a very lasting influnce upon the world; a hell of alot more important and lasting then anything the mongols ever did.
Brain
Lost in thought
I just want to point out that, although you may not know it, here in Poland we still have a Mongol ethnic group several centuries later. This is just to show that the world is not all black or white.Xen said:
Brain said:
do they activlly call themselves mongol, or are they true to life, Mongols whom at any time may ride thier Steppe breed ponies out into Russia or beyond?
The answer shoudl make the reality of thier situation clear. they arnt True Mongols.
TheBB
Prince
Sure, Mali deserves to be in, but what's all this bashing on the mongols? The mongol empire did in fact have profound influence on west / east communication in the middle ages. Russia is still a connected empire from Scandinavia to the Pacific, mostly as a direct result of the Mongol empire. The mongols also secured the west / east trading routes, eventually leading to Marco Polo and his family getting into contact with China. Marco Polo was a wonder in Civ 2. The mongols, in my opinion, have affected history more so than Mali. Why are you arguing with economics and culture? Isn't history what this game is about?
Dearmad
Dead weight
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XEN Said:
easy; all they did was impose thier rule; they adopted local languages, cultures, people, and within a generation, they werent even a significant army any longer, they had to rely on local peoples; combien this with internal tension, and it slittle wonder that the Mongol broke up; thier was no true unfying factor, as they barelly had a common culture; once emersed int eh realms of other civlizations, they ditched what they had, and took up the traditions of other, eventually marrying so throughlly, that no trace of them actually lingers in most fo the lands they conqoured.
thier only contributuion was allowing the peaceful travel of Marco Polo to the orient
A) you dont have a clue about economics, do you when somthing is commodity in a particuler, such as Gold in the Niger area, it dosent have a great deal of local value; yet, the mali were still rich- why were they still rich? because they were a source for megalithic trade routes that stretched into Europe and Mid east liek no others, and were ten fold more important then the sil rout which the Mongols monopolized ever was
B)So much Niger gold coem fourth thats its estimated that well over a third of ALL middle age gold came from it, and the fortune of natiosn was dependent on it; th ebullion market woudl collapse for a period because so much gold came fourth into the middle east
End of Xen
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Heh. On this argument the Fuggers, and Medici, should be a Civ.
easy; all they did was impose thier rule; they adopted local languages, cultures, people, and within a generation, they werent even a significant army any longer, they had to rely on local peoples; combien this with internal tension, and it slittle wonder that the Mongol broke up; thier was no true unfying factor, as they barelly had a common culture; once emersed int eh realms of other civlizations, they ditched what they had, and took up the traditions of other, eventually marrying so throughlly, that no trace of them actually lingers in most fo the lands they conqoured.
thier only contributuion was allowing the peaceful travel of Marco Polo to the orient
A) you dont have a clue about economics, do you
when somthing is commodity in a particuler, such as Gold in the Niger area, it dosent have a great deal of local value; yet, the mali were still rich- why were they still rich? because they were a source for megalithic trade routes that stretched into Europe and Mid east liek no others, and were ten fold more important then the sil rout which the Mongols monopolized ever wasB)So much Niger gold coem fourth thats its estimated that well over a third of ALL middle age gold came from it, and the fortune of natiosn was dependent on it; th ebullion market woudl collapse for a period because so much gold came fourth into the middle east
End of Xen
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Heh. On this argument the Fuggers, and Medici, should be a Civ.
Dearmad
Dead weight
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Xen said:
WTH? Dude, you are seriously screwed up. Do the Mali still control Gold in Africa? They're the poorest nation there just about now. So they don't deserve to be called Mali since obviously" they're culture died out without a trace...
Ick, man you have no rationale thinking in your posts.
That's not the same. A university is not just a school, although today they tend to look like a school more and more, alas. Universities are also constructed for the purpose of concentrating research, where previously this was left to the individual scholar.
Universities were 'exported' from Mali to Arabia and from there to Spain and the rest of Europe, and from Arabia also to the east along the silk route.
Universities were 'exported' from Mali to Arabia and from there to Spain and the rest of Europe, and from Arabia also to the east along the silk route.
Dearmad, I don't understand your "no influence" statement. What constitutes influence in your mind? Are we talking about influence on your life or the culture in your particular neighbourhood? Or some elusive "world culture"? Or would you actually maintain that the Mali empire and the civilization of that region had nothing to do with modern West Africa?
It sounds like you basically couldn't care less about West Africa... which isn't necessarily a scandal in itself.
However, West Africa has its own tradition of civilization which developed on its own, though it had strong ties to Islamic civilization. 'Sahelian civilization' is a term referring to all of this tradition and includes the empire of Mali as well as the earlier Ghana and the later Songhay. The way I see it, the Civ4 design team has chosen Mali to represent all the Sahelian civilization, which is cool.
As for the Mongols, I don't really like to see them as a civ. Not because I think they somehow had less effect on world history - quite the contrary! I think they had a much greater effect on it than West African civilization. However the Mongols did not really affect the world as a civilization, since they weren't a civilization. They were a collection of nomadic tribes with a common identity and a leader but no cities, writing, or permanent construction whatsoever. No historian would consider them a civilization by the strict definition.
I wouldn't mind a Turkic Central Asian civ though, to represent the urbanized people who thrived on the Silk Road (think Samarkand, Bokhara, Kabul, etc). That would be the closest we should get to Mongols.
The Mongols should much rather be in as some kind of huge barbarian horde event - that would be the coolest solution IMHO! They'd storm around the map, pillage a lot and raze some cities to the ground; others they'd govern but after a while the cities would revert due to the non-existent culture of the Mongol rulers.
It sounds like you basically couldn't care less about West Africa... which isn't necessarily a scandal in itself.
However, West Africa has its own tradition of civilization which developed on its own, though it had strong ties to Islamic civilization. 'Sahelian civilization' is a term referring to all of this tradition and includes the empire of Mali as well as the earlier Ghana and the later Songhay. The way I see it, the Civ4 design team has chosen Mali to represent all the Sahelian civilization, which is cool.
As for the Mongols, I don't really like to see them as a civ. Not because I think they somehow had less effect on world history - quite the contrary! I think they had a much greater effect on it than West African civilization. However the Mongols did not really affect the world as a civilization, since they weren't a civilization. They were a collection of nomadic tribes with a common identity and a leader but no cities, writing, or permanent construction whatsoever. No historian would consider them a civilization by the strict definition.
I wouldn't mind a Turkic Central Asian civ though, to represent the urbanized people who thrived on the Silk Road (think Samarkand, Bokhara, Kabul, etc). That would be the closest we should get to Mongols.
The Mongols should much rather be in as some kind of huge barbarian horde event - that would be the coolest solution IMHO! They'd storm around the map, pillage a lot and raze some cities to the ground; others they'd govern but after a while the cities would revert due to the non-existent culture of the Mongol rulers.
Greek Stud
Prince
I agree with Xen on the terms of influence of the Mali versus the Mongols. The only affect Mongols had on Western Civilizations were destructive roles. Am I the only that knows of the Silk Road? The Byzantine Empire already had connections with both India and China before the Mongol raids. Mongols raid destroyed Russian, Caucasian, Persian, Arab, Assyrian, Armenian, and Greco-Roman culture. Their influence on civilizations were nothing less than the influence of the Bubonic Plague.
I think the best Civ for Turktic Civilizations would be the Tanurians. They allied with the Mongols, Nestorian Persians and Chinese against the Ottomans, Seljuks, Zoroastrian Persians and Jihadist Arabs.
I think the best Civ for Turktic Civilizations would be the Tanurians. They allied with the Mongols, Nestorian Persians and Chinese against the Ottomans, Seljuks, Zoroastrian Persians and Jihadist Arabs.
