It's official: Mali is in as a civ. -snicker-

[Midwinter]

I've always considered Egypt to be both 'African' and 'Mediterranean' - I consider Carthage to be the same, while Rome and Greece were\are 'European' and 'Mediterranean'.

IMO, the Med is a strange area - the nations bordering it have had relations with each other, and together seem almost separate from their respective 'home' continents, while still remaining very much a part of them.

Egypt is, without question, African. Geopolitically, however, its influence on the Mediterranean world cannot be ignored.

Isn't this thread supposed to be about the Mali?

 

[rhialto]

Personally, rather than define culture groups by continent, I think more practical geographical terms are better. To whit:

Sub-Saharan Africa
Mediterranean
Northern Europe

I realise of course that teh gap between Britain and France isn't that clear cut, and it's even questionable which one France belongs to here, but it works a lot better imho.

 

[nebuchadnezzar]

Generic Turks? At least they havent pissed everyone off. Ask the neighbors of Turkey who likes the Ottomans, then ask the Tanurians and Russians how they feel of each other. Kazakhs have a space program, missile program, and great relations with almost the entire world.

Ask neighbors of Greeks, who likes them - except Turks We gave 12 points to Greece in the latest Eurovision Song Contest
(just kidding)

Ottomans and Mongols are animals. They lived in people's buildings or had them build palaces for them and tried to pull it off as their own culture wonders. The world wouldve been better off without them.

(no kidding, seriously)
NO Civilization can be called "animals" - even if you hate them.

Some civs get power and conquer others. This is the rule. You have to accept it.

I think you have some bad feelings about the Ottoman culture. What makes a civ is the people living under that civ's control. Yes, true, lots of Armenian, Greek, Jewish and other people created Ottoman culture, as well as the Turkish ones. But, here we say an Ottoman culture. Ottomans were not a race, the name comes from a dynasty. The people lived under Ottoman control were not only Turks. Most important, they were NOT forced to be assimilated or converted to Islam. They were free in all their lives. Greeks and Armenians were in control of trade up to 19th century, when Jews gained more power and took control of most of the trade. Moreover, Ottomans, likewise all previous Turkish empires, had mercy to ones who accepted the Ottoman control. The most famous example is modern-day Edirne (former Adrianopolis - just to please you). Edirne surrendered to Ottoman forces, and Ottomans made a law that no Ottoman buildings should be build within the city. All people of the city were to continue their lives as they are used to. The old city still exist today.

I know the place of this subject is not here, so I offer not to continue this Greek-Turkish conflict in this post. (This includes your thoughts about the Cyprus Conflict). The subject of this thread is about Mali, so go on Mali.

 

[Greek Stud]

hey nebuchadnezzar!

Look, I know that the animal comment was outta line and Im sorry to have said it cause it is wrong. I just get so pissed off and you are probably familiar with the various arguments Turks and Greeks are in about what was the truth and what was fabricated.

Even if you were to have said Adrianople, this city was in revolt against the Byzantine Greeks because as the Norman Franks, Ottoman Turks and Seljuk Turks were crushing us, our laws became more Conservative and they dispised our Empire at the end.

The part that pisses me off is not that we lost the Greco-Turkish War, which we deserved to lose; but Turkish policy against the Greek Orthodox Church and for the actions in Cyprus. I know that the Greek junta had a plan to unite and rid the Turks. They were a tumbling power and were desparate to do something to become popular. So I understand why Turkey invaded, but you never left, and you never returned property. I cant go back to my house, it has been illegally sold to foreigners and my family still has the deed to the house. Your presence in Cyprus is illegal in international law. Does anyone in Turkey ever try to understand that the Greeks in Cyprus did not want Union? Does anyone ever mention that taking land in Cyprus is the same as Greeks wanting to take land in Turkey? Your country simplifies atrocities like the Hellenic Massacres and Armenian Genocide as history, yet it says that the Cyprus issue is sensitive when the invasion was based off of random killings, hate crimes that even happen today in other countries, yet dont merit invasion or justification to cease land and property.

On Mali, my friend from Peace Corps is going in a couple of months, actually shes going to Mauritania but said she wants to visit Tombouctou.

I was really hoping for the Ashanti. It just sounds like a cool Civ and the leader can have the title Ghana since it meant King/Ruler. They were also rich in gold and I think they had those cool neck braces that stretch your necks. That would be an awesome leaderhead.

 

[Greek Stud]

Neighbors of Greeks:

Italians love us.
Cypriots love us.
Albania think they are Illyrians. They promised to over-populate Greece as to annex it.
Vardar-Banovina dont speak Greek yet believe they led a Hellenic Empire.
Bulgaria is too poor to express what they think, the country appears to be Communist in lifestyle.
Egyptian Arabs have mutual interests in investments, when the Greeks were forced to choose citizenship in Alexandria where they were once allowed to live as Greek Citizens, thats when Arabs lost money when Greek investors left Egypt, today they are returning.
Egyptian Coptics want stronger religious representation as do the Ethiopians amoung Orthodox Churches. The Copts are reliant on the Greek stance against laws in Egypt that are pushing the true Egyptians out of Egypt. And Greeks were amoung the only people that stood against the terrorists that bomb Coptic buildings and businesses. The same terrorists that are commiting Genocide on Darfur.
Lybia was once a state that had highest foreign investment from Greece during the Shipping Tycoon Era. After the State terrorist acts, Greek investments were fully withdrawn. I dont know of any personal relations between these two States.

Greece is the highest investor in all the Balkans, so when their Governments praise Greece today in the News, I'm not sure how to perceive it. But Politics and individual people are two different things. I judge the individual Turks by his or her own composure, but I judge the country Turkey by it's politics and agendas (i.e. Aegean Army).

 

[Evie]

and because of that, deny its africaness and bring it into the real civilized world. not to put too fine a point on it

Some people might have that reasoning, yes.

Personally, I do it for a similar, but fundamentally different reason. I liek to call it the "Nightsky moon" effect. If you ever watched the nightsky you must have noticed how the full moon blots out many stars since it's so bright ; that's exactly what happens in history. Classify Egypt as part of Africa, and Egypt is ALL you'll ever hear about regarding Africa, because the other great african civilizations, great as they may be, are dwarfed by Egypt. (China has much the same effect on Asian history, where only Japan really breaks through).

If classifying Egypt as part of the Fertile Crescent/NEar/Middle East is what it takes to give places like Ethiopia, Mali, Songhay, etc their place in the sun, then I'm all for it.

 

[imagod284]

Some people might have that reasoning, yes.

Personally, I do it for a similar, but fundamentally different reason. I liek to call it the "Nightsky moon" effect. If you ever watched the nightsky you must have noticed how the full moon blots out many stars since it's so bright ; that's exactly what happens in history. Classify Egypt as part of Africa, and Egypt is ALL you'll ever hear about regarding Africa, because the other great african civilizations, great as they may be, are dwarfed by Egypt. (China has much the same effect on Asian history, where only Japan really breaks through).

If classifying Egypt as part of the Fertile Crescent/NEar/Middle East is what it takes to give places like Ethiopia, Mali, Songhay, etc their place in the sun, then I'm all for it.

Cool way to sum it up. But the real question is, do Ethiopia, Mali, and Songhay deserve to be in the game? Are you going to tell me that they are among the 18 most important cultures in world history? Are you going to include Ethiopia but not Spain? Take Numidia over Germany? I think not.

 

[Meleager]

This is the real issue:

How you decide if a nations culture is important?
Cause otherwise you can't figure out:

...the 18 most important cultures in world history?

 

[imagod284]

How do you decide if a civilization is important? I suppose you look at the impact that civ has had on history/the world. It's really not that complicated. Example, England has had a major impact on history and influenced much of the world, Ethiopia has not. England should be selected to be in the game ahead of Ethiopia.

 

[Fer de Lance]

Some people might have that reasoning, yes.

Personally, I do it for a similar, but fundamentally different reason. I liek to call it the "Nightsky moon" effect. If you ever watched the nightsky you must have noticed how the full moon blots out many stars since it's so bright ; that's exactly what happens in history. Classify Egypt as part of Africa, and Egypt is ALL you'll ever hear about regarding Africa, because the other great african civilizations, great as they may be, are dwarfed by Egypt. (China has much the same effect on Asian history, where only Japan really breaks through).

thats actually an excellent analogy. However, if you take egypt out of africa, 1, you are taking egypt out of africa and if you don't see anything wrong with that well...,

and 2, you take it out and you still don't hear anything about africa. in the world africa is marginalized. As proof, board members are debating whether or not Mali DESERVES to be included in the game.

egypt and china cant be compared scalewise. Egypt controlled a small part of Africa during its prime. Now it was the most important part from a Mediterranean perspective. And guess who decides what goes in history books. Admittedly, my knowledge of ancient China is spotty, but I'd like to think the Middle Kingdom was alot bigger in comparion to Asia than KMT was to Africa. I would've thought Russia would've played a big part in Asain history, unless you meant history of Asian people instead of Asain countries. And that's what discussions like these really come down to

 

[Fer de Lance]

Cool way to sum it up. But the real question is, do Ethiopia, Mali, and Songhay deserve to be in the game? Are you going to tell me that they are among the 18 most important cultures in world history? Are you going to include Ethiopia but not Spain? Take Numidia over Germany? I think not.

i guess it depends on what part of the world you've decided to care about

 

[Meleager]

How do you decide if a civilization is important? I suppose you look at the impact that civ has had on history/the world. It's really not that complicated. Example, England has had a major impact on history and influenced much of the world, Ethiopia has not. England should be selected to be in the game ahead of Ethiopia.

Yes, but it is the winners who write history not the most important people.

 

[Hannabir]

How do you decide if a civilization is important? I suppose you look at the impact that civ has had on history/the world. It's really not that complicated. Example, England has had a major impact on history and influenced much of the world, Ethiopia has not. England should be selected to be in the game ahead of Ethiopia.

England did not even exist when Ethiopia had already influenced the world for millennia.

Now if duration is the criterium, then England is out and Ethiopia is in. If empire size comes first, England is in and Ethiopia is out. You can basically tell it any way you want, since there are so many civilizations that influenced the world one time or another and in one way or another.

 

[CurtSibling]

explain away then, dear Dearmad; I eagerlly await what profound enlightenment your going to shed upon me of previouslly unkown influnces that the glorious Mongols gave to an awestruck world other then yet another batch of bloody barbarians from the steppe who couldnt even keep thier own culture.

Hmm...Look at Asia.

I don't see much Mali culture in India or China?

For the record, I reckon the Mali are a better choice than Zulus...

England did not even exist when Ethiopia had already influenced the world for millennia.

Now if duration is the criterium, then England is out and Ethiopia is in. If empire size comes first, England is in and Ethiopia is out. You can basically tell it any way you want, since there are so many civilizations that influenced the world one time or another and in one way or another.

Cultural 'fame' seems to be the market criteria - So the biggies like England will always be in.

.

 

[Xen]

Albania think they are Illyrians.

well, to be fair they (and the rest of the "slavic" bations east of Italy, south of the Danube are Illyrians as well)

*as far egypt goes, its influnece has never really been on the med sea, more like on just the middle east, unless we strart really giving economics a boost of cultural importance; its people are berbers, thier culture is inline with what one woudl expect out of iddle east, albeit highlly satyilized, and with soem unusual tendencies; but tendencies we dont find in Africa either mind you, and while egypt had a huge influence on Nubia, the Romans had a huge influnece on Axum, even further south, yet we dont call the Romans africans; its geographically a part of africa; otherwise, it can be put into the middle east, until the hellenistic period, where one can argue it was a med sea power, until arabs take over the nation.

 

[Evie]

Cool way to sum it up. But the real question is, do Ethiopia, Mali, and Songhay deserve to be in the game? Are you going to tell me that they are among the 18 most important cultures in world history? Are you going to include Ethiopia but not Spain? Take Numidia over Germany? I think not.

If you want to go harp about so-called "Historical importance" of a nation, I have three WONDERFUL targets in mind for you. They're called "Incans", "Mayans" and "Aztecs".

Fer de Lance - I've had more success getting people to know about Mali et al by excluding Egypt than by including them. No, the process is not automatic, but it's MUCH easier to make Mali/Ethiopia a major topic of African history if you exclude Egypt.

 

[Invisible Rhino]

Take Numidia over Germany?

Yes. It's at test of time not a test of the last century and a half. Numidia existed longer and had more impact on world history than Germany ever will.

Ideally of course they should both be included.

 

[RichardMNixon]

I agree that they are weighing modern countries such as Spain, Portugal, and the Netherlands too highly, but it also makes sense for marketing.
These are the countries people know, they'd be confused to see a game full of Numidia, Mali, Ethiopia, Khmer, Aryan, Mughel, Assyrian, Seljuk, and Hun...

 

[RichardMNixon]

Hmmm, replace the Ottomans and Mongols, for generic Turk's.

That sounds good.

Maybe go as far as Zimbabweans?

In that case, why not replace Portugal and Spain with Iberians? Those two have far more in common with each other than Ottomans and Mongols. Mongols and Seljuks maybe, but the Ottomans were never nomadic, they were set up by the Seljuks as a border against Byzantium and soon became more powerful than anyone else in the region.

Zimbabwe as opposed to Zulu?

 

[Abegweit]

Someone mentioned Guns, Germs and Steel.

One way to classify civilisations is by their foodkit. In Civ4, we have one civ with the Meso-American foodkit and one with the Andean-Amazonian foodkit. All the rest are Eurasian.

Except Mali.

Surely the South-Saharan foodkit deserves at least one representative. In previous incarnations of Civ, we had the Zulus. I agree that one of the West African Kingdoms is a better choice than than the Zulus and applaud Firaxis for making the switch.