ITT we design a brand new tech tree.

[Zyxpsilon]

Then,
1) METAL CASTING for Sulfur instead of GUNPOWDER. Bee-Lined with current logical path, a solidly used brake up process for elementary mineral forging & ore processing, etc.
2) MEDECINE inserted between SCIENTIFIC THEORY and CHEMISTRY OR ECONOMICS; always time for an OR clause. Also lined with eventual BIOLOGY. Important effect for it? 25% of Gold turned into Food. No kidding, Doctors make a bunch of money and while cattle meat might feed an army they still needed a "Slaughtering" gimmick to make any byproducts somehow usefull.
Modern candidate; Gene Splicing.

Any intentions on using more than two *AND* clauses too, btw?

 

[Ramesses]

METAL CASTING for Sulfur instead of GUNPOWDER.

What does everyone else think about Sulfur being in the game? I'm okay with it, but I've heard concerns that it might not really be rare enough to be considered a strategic resource.

Bee-Lined with current logical path, a solidly used brake up process for elementary mineral forging & ore processing, etc.

I'm not sure; I think I liked the way Civ IV did it, where Bronze Working led to both Iron Working and Metal Casting, partly because I think you can learn to create molds using only knowledge of Bronze, and partly because I'm not too keen on tech paths that don't converge or split for two techs or more. But I'll put down Iron Working as a prerequisite to Metal Casting for the time being.

Important effect for MEDICINE? 25% of Gold turned into Food.

How exactly would this work? For each city, 25% of its commerce yield would be added to its food yield? Or, does it involve "rushing" food by spending gold from your coffers?

Any intentions on using more than two *AND* clauses too, btw?

Sure, why not. As long as it doesn't clutter up the tree too much.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

About the whole Rarety principle for almost everything suggested... Horses & Iron & Oil (Opep tricks included!) aren't that hard to come by already -- in reality too.
The point is if we "categorize" Eras in some sub-formats (Ex; Ancient =<= Ice/Stone/Bronze/Iron ages, Modern =>= Atomic/WW1/GreatDepression/WW2/ColdWar ages, etc), diversification of assets should compound proportionally.

MEDECINE effect.?.. fairly simple in fact; as of now Production to Wealth or Research are available. 25% Gold (Commerce Yield, as you put it) to Food has similar functions & impacts.

25% Science to Culture (and MONEY, btw) could yet be considered from another perspective -- a fair chunk of Renaissance history was focused on turning scientific knowledge into some form of cultural influence in Europe - Music, Dance, Architecture & so on. Heck, even that *is* an indirect solution to the controversial RA's; buy common techs along with a diplomatic trick.

I'm perfectly fine with the Bronze insertion you selected.

 

[Ramesses]

MEDECINE effect.?.. fairly simple in fact; as of now Production to Wealth or Research are available. 25% Gold (Commerce Yield, as you put it) to Food has similar functions & impacts.

Well that leaves a small problem. When you build Wealth or Research, you're still using the production, along with food and gold, yields of worked tiles. With this conversion of Gold to Food, though, you're using the gold and food yields, but not the production. The hammers from worked tiles will just go to waste. So my question is, what do we divert the production yield to?

I suggest we change the ability to "25% of Production and 25% of Gold to Food." Percentages can be lowered if that's too game-breaking.

Another question: if you select this project for a city, what does this do to your GPT? Does this city provide the full amount as usual, just the 75% that's left over, or none at all?

25% Science to Culture (and MONEY, btw) could yet be considered from another perspective

Now this is a bit trickier. Do you mean all of the city's science, including that from population, or just what you get from worked tiles? And again, what about the production yields, and will the science still be going toward research?

 

[Ahriman]

What does everyone else think about Sulfur being in the game? I'm okay with it, but I've heard concerns that it might not really be rare enough to be considered a strategic resource.

I don't think it makes historic or gameplay sense.
An inability to make enough gunpowder due to resource limitations was never a historic factor.
The whole point about firearms was that they were easy to mass-produce and provide to a large army who could use them without too much training.

I would heavily lean against gunpowder units needing a map-based strategic resource.
Particularly since the existing game design has Muskets *weaker* than longswords, but cheaper and with no resource requirement.

Factions who knew how to make gunpowder could make the gunpowder they wanted; cost was the limiting factor (and manpower), not land-based resources. People never went to war to take their neighbor's sulphur (but they *did* steal their neighbor's horses and try to conquer their coal, oil, etc.).

Horses & Iron & Oil (Opep tricks included!) aren't that hard to come by already -- in reality too.

And thats a gameplay problem. These things need to be valuable, and they're only valuable if they're scarce. We also want policies like Fascism and the Arabian UA to actually be powerful.
Its not I think that we need fewer horse and iron resources and such, but that we should have each version only provide 2 copies.

diversification of assets should compound proportionally.

I don't understand what you mean here.
I think the way to represent increasing access is that eventually resources are no longer strategic.
For example, iron might be rare in classical and medieval ages, but beyond that iron is common enough that units don't need a strategic iron resource anymore, even if they're made of iron and steel.
In a similar manner, late industrial and early modern units require oil, but eventually oil is common enough that units don't require the oil, and instead oil is strategic only for civilian purposes (eg supporting Superhighways buildings).
Hardwood timber stands might be valuable and needed for some early (maybe for the early exploration units?) but wouldn't be needed for 18th-19th century wooden ships.

MEDECINE effect.?.. fairly simple in fact; as of now Production to Wealth or Research are available. 25% Gold (Commerce Yield, as you put it) to Food has similar functions & impacts.

Food should just be food.
Don't mix food and gold together, or food and production, or you get messed up cities that start starving as soon as you stop converting things into food.
Food is different from other resources, because it isn't just an income yield, most food is required to maintain existing population levels.

Medicine should increase population growth rates by allowing a hospital building, like in the current vanilla Civ5 - it reduces the amount of excess food needed for the next population level. That mechanic works fine as is.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Figures on Images could make my "reasoning" a bit more obvious i guess;

- If Focus choices are any important when trying to balance or fine-tune some city outputs... then A,B,C below are the current effects while D,E use the 25%Production to Research or Wealth.
- Now, F introduces Growth conversion and these be would impacted by it; 1) 92 turns until new citizen birth 2) Available Food to the city 3) Lower 26 Commerce accordingly.
- I didn't evaluate the exact resulting values but you can certainly grasp what it might do for *extremely* good reasons, IMHO.

Even the 25% "limit" can be fiddled with a tier-like system spreading over time; 50%, 75% even 100% if needed or somehow, useful.

As to what to do with the 75% wasted production -- aren't we enforced into such stuff already with Wealth & Research, should i ask?

I want total control, not gameplay breaking restrictions & obstacles.

The opportunity is right here & now with Techs re-organization. We need features, not copy-paste renaming only.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

1) The whole point about firearms was that they were easy to mass-produce and provide to a large army who could use them without too much training.

2) I don't understand what you mean here.
I think the way to represent increasing access is that eventually resources are no longer strategic.

3) Hardwood timber stands might be valuable and needed for some early (maybe for the early exploration units?) but wouldn't be needed for 18th-19th century wooden ships.

4) Don't mix food and gold together, or food and production, or you get messed up cities that start starving as soon as you stop converting things into food.
Food is different from other resources, because it isn't just an income yield, most food is required to maintain existing population levels.

5) Medicine should increase population growth rates by allowing a hospital building, like in the current vanilla Civ5 - it reduces the amount of excess food needed for the next population level. That mechanic works fine as is.

1) Without Aluminum, i can't build a whole bunch of Units already. Why should firearms be any different? Your argumentative line is totally mute if only because Coal is necessary for Factories -- expand the scope of Sulfur for a split second.

2) If Eiffel Tower requires Iron? If Workshops need Metal, Tools? If Farms must have a steady supply of pesticides, water(duh!)?

3) 2010, right now down my street are huge Condo Skyscrapers which infrastructures are built with 2x4 pine studs (plywood sheets on roof, copper wires for voltage, concrete foundations, etc) everywhere.

4) Well, it's the *OTHER* way around entirely. See previous post.

5) Medecine is a discipline that certainly lead to Scientific Theory & pharmaceutical driven economies. I'm a diabetic & i spend a whole lotta cash to sustain my health (which reminds, gotta go for a minute, the noon call blood-test.... be right back...), prescribed by a doctor. What we make of it is simply interpretation(s). Even from just me. Hypocrates would spin in his tomb.

 

[Ahriman]

If Focus choices are any important when trying to balance or fine-tune some city outputs.

Focus choices are purely MM-minimizers. They're a city governor effect; they influence what tile and specialist choices the AI makes if you elect not to run these personally.
They have no impact on outputs other than than through tile/specialist selection.

If you want less food and more gold, then work a trading post tile instead of a farm tile.

There is no need for some kind of separate conversion feature.

 

[Ahriman]

1) Without Aluminum, i can't build a whole bunch of Units already

You can always build a core frontline unit, in every era.
Mech Inf don't require aluminium.

Gunpowder units are different because they are the generic frontline unit of the era, to be produced en masse. Strategic resources are for specialists or elites, that you shouldn't be able to spam.

If Eiffel Tower requires Iron? If Workshops need Metal, Tools? If Farms must have a steady supply of pesticides, water(duh!)?

You're trying to put too much realism in here.
Just because IRL the Eiffel tower is made of iron doesn't mean that it should require an Iron strategic resource.
Not every input needs to represented as a strategic resource. Only the really, really important onces that are scarce in a particular era. And a resource that is scarce in one era might not be scarce in following eras.

2010, right now down my street are huge Condo Skyscrapers which infrastructures are built with 2x4 pine studs (plywood sheets on roof, copper wires for voltage, concrete foundations, etc) everywhere.

Yes, that's true, but wood is not a scarce, strategic resource in 2010.
You don't have countries that can't build houses because they can't get enough building materials. This is easily available.
Similarly, iron ore is very easily available in the modern era, so the number of iron resources you have should no longer be relevant for determining what structures you can build; all they have left is the small tile yield modifier.

Medecine is a discipline that certainly lead to Scientific Theory & pharmaceutical driven economies. I'm a diabetic & i spend a whole lotta cash to sustain my health (which reminds, gotta go for a minute, the noon call blood-test.... be right back...), prescribed by a doctor. What we make of it is simply interpretation(s). Even from just me. Hypocrates would spin in its tomb.

I really have no idea what you're saying here.
But medicine should not be an economic tech. Just because IRL we have a market economy where technological innovations are sold for money doesn't mean that they should be an economic tech in the game. Economic techs in Civ should be things like currency, banking, finance, and trade boosters. Medicine should be about reducing death rates, and the easiest way to represent reduced death rates is through faster population growth, which the hospital building already does very nicely.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Ahriman => Mr.Contradiction!

What about YOUR copper? Any thoughts you'd want me to obliterate, demolish for no good reasons of my own?

Strategic Resources need not be Unit or Building dependant either, when taken into diplo-trading context. While Bonus & Luxury may be bargaining chips or represent "We Love The King" for 30 turns in a swift deal, if i blockade AIs on its toes & nails because i took over Uranium exclusivity -- who's the Apocalyptic ruler by Nukes stockpiling? USA, USSR and plenty more?

It's a Game, you & i play. Gimme the real power. Not a designing opinion.

But when i'll see a Rifleman & gangs, i'll know it took sulfur (oooppppss, Decimals are mathematically possible too, Johny_Boy?!?) to brought it near the city "wooden" walls. Abundant, limited, optimized for balance, rare or totally invisible.

(PS; Interesting conversation, anyway!)

 

[Ahriman]

Ahriman => Mr.Contradiction!
What about YOUR copper?

I would add copper only if I added an extra early game era, with an extra tier of military units. In that age, the core unit would also not require any strategic resource.
I could easily imagine an axeman unit with no resource requirement, and a Phalanx unit that required the copper resource.
This would involve a major re-working of the early game tech tree, separating Roman-era from Bronze age/early Hellenic world.

Strategic Resources need not be Unit or Building dependant either, when taken into diplo-trading context.

This makes no sense to me.
Why would anyone trade for a strategic resource if it didn't allow a unit or building?
The whole point of strategic resources is that it limits the number of a powerful unit or building that you can have.

I genuinely don't understand the rest of what you're saying. Sorry.

 

[Ramesses]

I'm sorry, Zyxpsilon, but I have to side with Ahriman on this one. You seem to want to make much bigger changes than the scope of this project allows. The goal of this thread is, first and foremost, to rearrange the tech tree to something that does not force you to research unneeded technologies they way it does now, and secondarily to take out the more dubious technologies (Chivalry and Archaeology are two that spring to mind) and replace them with techs more relevant from a worldwide standpoint (Alphabet and Code of Laws are two personal choices I'd like to add, if I can find good effects for them first).

I have no interest in saturating the map with tons of new resources, nor implementing experimental concepts, at least at this point in time. In the future, when we actually have a nearly-complete tech tree constructed, I may change my mind about introducing some brand new gameplay elements. And I'm always open to importing concepts from previous Civ titles and their official expansions, as we've seen them in action already.

 

[Ahriman]

to rearrange the tech tree to something that does not force you to research unneeded technologies they way it does now

The one thing I would add as a note of wariness here: the AI tends to research very broadly, rather than deep. So if you start creating optional techs that aren't needed in order to go deep, you exacerbate the human player's ability to reach deeper into the tech tree than the AI, and make it even more likely that the player will be further ahead on tech.

 

[Lightzy]

I suggest to make resource detection techs a whole era before the resource utilization techs (IE a lot less expensive).

If both techs are too close together (resource detection and resource utilization) then its not fun for a player who invests a lot of points into the hopes that aluminum may be there, finds that there is none and moves on to another expensive detection tech for something else.

It is much more fun gameplay-wise to give the player the option to plan ahead as much as possible on what route he'll be taking.


Also, make each era count.


Basically the whole game is set up poorly so changing the tech tree without changing everything else is not a sound proposition.



I'd start by resetting all land and resource values to be the same as in civ4 (including changing un-irrigated farms to produce 0 more food or cancel the ability to build them until certain techs), then changing all city growth formulas and unit/building costs to balance with this (you'll have to slow down city growth because there will be a lot more food from irrigated farms and resources)

THEN change the sci tree

 

[Pouakai]

Just remember you can't remove any techs, as they'll screw up future DLC.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Gotcha, all...

Here's somethin' i've been fiddling around for a few days;

ECONOMICS ; Preqs... Banking + Printing Press + Currency.

FLIGHT ; Preqs... Replaceable Parts + Combustion.

GLOBALIZATION (If Moved away from current location TO [#]!) ; Between COMPUTERS ..[#].. and these Preqs... MASS-MEDIA + ECOLOGY + (*or*) ROCKETRY.

MEDECINE (Into a new slot [#]) ; Between SCIENTIFIC THEORY ..[#].. and preqs... ECONOMICS + CHEMISTRY + (*and*) EDUCATION.

If ARCHAEOLOGY really needs to be replaced (IMO, it's perfectly fine as it is though), moved, altered or even just kept in any number of different ways... then i'd have to recommend;

THE ARTS (Into a new slot [#] too) but also requires to be moved; Between SCIENTIFIC THEORY ..[#].. and preqs... EDUCATION + ACOUSTICS.

It's quite alright with the superfluous work to be done with LUMBER, COPPER, SALT, SULFUR, RARE-EARTHS, etc (Be they considered or not as Strategic)... i understand the scope of ITT. I'll simply create my own tiny MOD (or let anyone else interested give it a fair try) for these if i want to.

Thus some TECHS stuff only (Structural tuning & so on)... as suggested earlier in this reply or beyond.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

I genuinely don't understand the rest of what you're saying. Sorry.

Doesn't really matter anymore, i guess.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Just remember you can't remove any techs, as they'll screw up future DLC.

E_x_a_c_t_l_y what i was trying to let everyone know before.
Be warned or stay sharp & widely aware that (back & forth) compatibility issues are -indeed- a three edge sword.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

The goal of this thread is, first and foremost, to rearrange the tech tree to something that does not force you to research unneeded technologies they way it does now, and secondarily to take out the more dubious technologies (Chivalry and Archaeology are two that spring to mind) and replace them with techs more relevant from a worldwide standpoint (Alphabet and Code of Laws are two personal choices I'd like to add, if I can find good effects for them first).

Lemme insist, please.

-- You might as well put an *OR* condition everywhere and be done with enforcing a Vanilla gameplay pattern (which is, in fact, pre-designed in almost cohesive balancing terms).

Go right ahead, rename CHIVALRY to Stirrup and ARCHAEOLOGY to whatever tasty other name you might want. It's your baby, after all.

Alphabet is WRITING & CodeofLaws is pretty much a toss coin between PHILOSOPHY and CIVIL-SERVICE... effects, functionality, justice, corruption control ala-Civ-xx, preqs aside -- AFAIC.

 

[Ramesses]

Basically the whole game is set up poorly so changing the tech tree without changing everything else is not a sound proposition.

As much as I hate to concede this point, you're right. I've come to the realization myself that the process I've set up in this thread is fundamentally flawed. Don't worry, this doesn't mean I'm going to abandon this idea, just that I need to re-evaluate the order of the goals I set, and add some new ones to the beginning, so that we're no longer jumping too far ahead in our plans like we are now.

Feel free to talk amongst yourselves while I think of how to do that.