ITT we design a brand new tech tree.
- Thread starter Ramesses
- Start date
Mostly, everything looks fine except for the generic placeholder of RareEarths. If that were to include Silicon dependency for Robotic & NanoTech warfare units, i'd be inclined to "approve of".
Although, water (From Ice-Age to Future) is essential IMO. Even if it is presently presumed to be within farming & river proximity functionality or otherwise... it really is a hugely strategic component abundant or not.
So.... summary for (final?) strategic resources;
From start to finish, spanning effects when & if needed.
Water-Horses-Lumber-Iron-Salt-Sulfur-Coal-Oil-Aluminum-Uranium-RareEarths.
For water, i'm talking huge amounts with lots of consequences & variations through even such simple things as building a farm, btw. No longer a 4 horses tiles type of feature. Cumulative, essential, monitored. Drought, famine. Plenty more.
Overlapping of usefulness & adapting dependancies yet to determine.
Agreed?
Although, water (From Ice-Age to Future) is essential IMO. Even if it is presently presumed to be within farming & river proximity functionality or otherwise... it really is a hugely strategic component abundant or not.
So.... summary for (final?) strategic resources;
From start to finish, spanning effects when & if needed.
Water-Horses-Lumber-Iron-Salt-Sulfur-Coal-Oil-Aluminum-Uranium-RareEarths.
For water, i'm talking huge amounts with lots of consequences & variations through even such simple things as building a farm, btw. No longer a 4 horses tiles type of feature. Cumulative, essential, monitored. Drought, famine. Plenty more.
Overlapping of usefulness & adapting dependancies yet to determine.
Agreed?
Ahriman
Tyrant
Well, Silicon itself isn't that rare and hard to get hold of, and isn't really a strategic resource.
Whereas a combination of various rare earths (and this is actually a technical term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earths ) can represent a combination of things involved in all kinds of technological stuff.
And we already see rare earths being used strategically; China is a big rare earths producer, and was with-holding export to Japan a couple of months ago in retaliation for Japan arresting a Chinese fishing boat in disputed waters.
I don't think people are that worried about Silicon, but many defense planners really are worried about particular country control of Rare Earths, because they're essential for many technologies (including cellphones, for example, and various computer stuff).
I argue for a generic rare earths that could include silicon in addition to weird things like yttrium and other things that might be needed for future techs that we don't get know are valuable.
We already have huge vanilla bonuses from rivers and lakes, from gold bonus and civil service bonus. And hydroplants.
I could see increases in yield value from lakes, they should be more valuable than they currently are.
But what we see in modern times is that the location of water sources is less and less important, because it gets ever-cheaper to move large amounts of water long-distances.
So there really isn't a particular benefit from being adjacent to the fresh water source. You can just pipe it from elsewhere.
And in future techs, we're likely to see ever more water-efficient production and hydroponic systems and the like. More crop per drop.
I don't see a need to use the strategic resource mechanic for water. Its better to just use tile yields and the existing mechanics. Which could definitely be expanded.
Strategic resources are used only as a build requirement for units and buildings, and I really don't see any military units that would be unbuildable without a fresh water resource.
Having the number of farm tiles I can build limited by some strategic resource does not sound like fun for the player at all, and could severely mess up the AI, who is not very efficient in choosing how to build improvements.
Its a neat idea, but I suspect its probably beyond the scope of a mod that is just trying to change the tech-tree.
Alright, scratch Water then! It might find a good and still deserved glorious place in some strange Mod in the real future.
Ramesses
Ruler. Visionary. Pimp.
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Step 3 is now open. You can start pitching possible prerequisite techs for the Key Techs and connect them to other Key Techs.
Most of the suggestions sound good, but I think they should be reserved for later. Right now it's too soon to be coming up with new units, buildings, or resources. I'll only consider them relevant enough to list if it's the first of its kind, or a strategic priority. For example, I've listed Archers but not Crossbowmen, because the Archer is the very first ranged unit available, while the Crossbowman is just an upgraded Archer. So if, for example, you can think of a line of Coal-based land units, just name the one that acts as the precursor to all the rest, and make a technology to go with it.
Most of the suggestions sound good, but I think they should be reserved for later. Right now it's too soon to be coming up with new units, buildings, or resources. I'll only consider them relevant enough to list if it's the first of its kind, or a strategic priority. For example, I've listed Archers but not Crossbowmen, because the Archer is the very first ranged unit available, while the Crossbowman is just an upgraded Archer. So if, for example, you can think of a line of Coal-based land units, just name the one that acts as the precursor to all the rest, and make a technology to go with it.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Those techs mostly seem reasonable, though I'd probably do a full tree redesign before assigning resources to techs. A tree that is adding in extra layers of military and buildings would need several more techs.
As I noted above, I'm not sure sulphur is really rare enough to justify being a strategic resource. I'm not aware of any country that ever had difficulty making enough gunpowder because it didn't have a local supply of sulphur. Anyone who had the tech to make gunpowder could make it, no-one was really limited in the number of gunpowder troops they could field.
If there was a sulphur resource, it would need to be revealed before gunpowder, otherwise you're back into the same problem that currently exists with iron, where you don't know if gunpowder is worth prioritizing (because you might not have the resource) until you've researched it already, and once you've revealed it you might have to go found a new city elsewhere before you can start building basic gunpowder units.
* * *
On other things:
I'd rename dynamite to Explosives, and I'd consider adding a separate artillery tech for artillery and having explosives boost mine yields.
What tech should boost trading posts? Maybe an "Urbanization" tech in the early industrial era?
Airforce base could be a modern era building that boosts defense strength again and gives free XP or increases build rate for aircraft units.
Globalization needs to have some kind of economy consequences.
Maybe a "Special Economic Zone" building that gives gold and production bonuses?
Or maybe that boosts trading post yields for the city?
We should probably have a modern era manufacturing plant, at robotics; it feels weird that Factory is the only big production booster.
And move the missile cruiser unit out of robotics.
We could have helicoptor based infantry/special forces as a modern-era infantry unit that could cross rivers and mountain ranges.
Split the naval units out into separate naval techs, rather than their weird existing techs.
Telegraph, Electricity and Refrigeration shouldn't be primarily about naval units.
Refrigeration tech could boost wheat, cow and fishing boat yields.
Not sure what telegraph tech should do, its hard to model communications improvements.
Fibreoptics should be some kind of modern era tech, with an Internet wonder.
As I noted above, I'm not sure sulphur is really rare enough to justify being a strategic resource. I'm not aware of any country that ever had difficulty making enough gunpowder because it didn't have a local supply of sulphur. Anyone who had the tech to make gunpowder could make it, no-one was really limited in the number of gunpowder troops they could field.
If there was a sulphur resource, it would need to be revealed before gunpowder, otherwise you're back into the same problem that currently exists with iron, where you don't know if gunpowder is worth prioritizing (because you might not have the resource) until you've researched it already, and once you've revealed it you might have to go found a new city elsewhere before you can start building basic gunpowder units.
* * *
On other things:
I'd rename dynamite to Explosives, and I'd consider adding a separate artillery tech for artillery and having explosives boost mine yields.
What tech should boost trading posts? Maybe an "Urbanization" tech in the early industrial era?
Airforce base could be a modern era building that boosts defense strength again and gives free XP or increases build rate for aircraft units.
Globalization needs to have some kind of economy consequences.
Maybe a "Special Economic Zone" building that gives gold and production bonuses?
Or maybe that boosts trading post yields for the city?
We should probably have a modern era manufacturing plant, at robotics; it feels weird that Factory is the only big production booster.
And move the missile cruiser unit out of robotics.
We could have helicoptor based infantry/special forces as a modern-era infantry unit that could cross rivers and mountain ranges.
Split the naval units out into separate naval techs, rather than their weird existing techs.
Telegraph, Electricity and Refrigeration shouldn't be primarily about naval units.
Refrigeration tech could boost wheat, cow and fishing boat yields.
Not sure what telegraph tech should do, its hard to model communications improvements.
Fibreoptics should be some kind of modern era tech, with an Internet wonder.
I would like to see iron revealed before Iron Working.
Not sure if this has been mentioned already. Perhaps it could be revealed by Bronze Working (or maybe even Mining)
Also, I would really like to see this project fix many of the tech tree inconstancy in the current game - flight before combustion, chariot archers before archery etc.
I will watch this thread with interest.
Not sure if this has been mentioned already. Perhaps it could be revealed by Bronze Working (or maybe even Mining)
Also, I would really like to see this project fix many of the tech tree inconstancy in the current game - flight before combustion, chariot archers before archery etc.
I will watch this thread with interest.
Ramesses
Ruler. Visionary. Pimp.
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Actually, you raise a good point. Why exactly do you need to discover Bronze Working before Iron Working? In fact, with Copper no longer a resource in the game, is Bronze Working a necessary technology at all?
If there's an ancient history buff in the house, perhaps they could tell us of any knowledge or practices that the working of bronze provided without which Iron Working would be impossible.
If there's an ancient history buff in the house, perhaps they could tell us of any knowledge or practices that the working of bronze provided without which Iron Working would be impossible.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Because tech dependencies should be driven primarily by gameplay reasons, and units of a particular function type as a general rule should always require their predecessor.
One of the lame things in the existing tree is that its possible to have Infantry without Rifling.
Yes, because a tech tree should have multiple military tiers, and there should be a difference between say Hellenic world bronze weapons and Roman-era iron weapons.
Also, Bronze Age -> Iron age is a huge change in human history.
Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_working
* * *
Note, I strongly agree that iron needs to be visible before iron working tech. All other strategic resources are and should be revealed before the tech that starts to use them, so that it is possible to get a source of the resource in time to actually begin using it without a big delay.
Alright boss, we'll do!
As an introduction to what i believe should be minimal considerations by anybody is the current Mods that took some fairly extensive steps into efficient Pre-Historic & Future Eras already; namely -- Total Mod and Beyond The Future for examples.
After a quick glimpse, breathe deeply and try to reason why that stuff makes sense. Even when the current project picks up and grows, there will always be common features & corresponding elements - no doubt.
To me (before delving into anything new to add) the obvious choice *HAS* to include the entire Vanilla assets together as a structure and most concepts. These stand on their own as an excellent source of inspiration with a solid base in rationality. Don't be fooled, years worth of multiple Titles from Firaxis surely lead to some interesting Start-Req-to-Req-to-End. It's a firm loop of & into evidences well implemented that basically represent history (for fantastic TBS gameplay) quite accurately. The only good way? I wonder.
Sure enough, we're not actually re-inventing the wheel too.
We scrub a bump here & there, polish the rims, wax the chrome trims -- but it remains an exercise of Copy/Paste/Rename/Relocate & adapt for specific concerns.
Then in my mind, we cannot dismiss Eras but we certainly should move stuff sideways, backward & forward as we see fit.
For the experienced players, i'd recommend an extensive BTS tree swoop also. It also includes fascinating Node connections that we'd be crazy to alter too harshly.
It's a fusion of intellectual challenges by the many that *MUST* begin with...
1) FIRE or yet another extremely important discovery within the 40000BC-15000BC time slot period followed by Ice_Stone_Bronze_Iron Ages until...
Ancient; 2500BC to 700BC
Classical; 700BC to 400AD
Medieval; 400AD to 1450AD
Renaissance; 1450AD to 1780AD
Industrial; 1780AD to 1850AD
Modern; 1850AD to 2050AD
Future; 2050AD and beyond without any sort of predictable limits.
That...
*) ENDS - not with a bunch of scoring points by piling up Future-Techs but with a single discovery & its very own long project that isn't inspired or caused by Utopia, Wars, Scientific SS-Launching, Political Voting or Wealth issues;
Spoiler :
Ahriman
Tyrant
I would look very heavily at Civ4 mods as well, particularly Rise of Mankind.
This isn't the first time people have considered this question.
The only fundamental things different with Civ5 are:
a) Social advances are largely in the social policy tree, religious techs removed
b) Strategic resources change the unit design
c) Slower pace/fewer units/more expensive buildings/maintenance costs means slower build times and more city specialization, fewer "build everywhere" structures
I'd probably include all the vanilla techs (except maybe some questionable things like Trapping or Archaeology, and I might use more generic names like Explosives and Medicine instead of Dynamite and Penicillin, stirrup instead of chivalry), but I wouldn't necessarily keep the same things they give.
Many techs have very weird things associated with them; look at telegraph, electricity, electronics, all the future era techs, and late modern, printing press, economics, biology, etc.
I would change these; industrial should run up to ~1900 at minimum, maybe even 1930/40.
Modern definitely doesn't start until the 20th century.
Look at some of the techs that are still industrial era in the current tree: flight, combustion, radio.
I took the years gap reference straight off WikiPedia for Industrial. The 1850 cut is entirely based on some reknown historians work & IIRC, originated by some England steam machinery process. Combustion engines are much older than even the first mass-produced automobiles or WW1 planes.
The main problem with Modern is that Atomic Theory is pivotal & that Einstein's Relativity is one of its triggering principles if not through nuclear application(s) & then a leap to Quantum Mechanics. Tesla's coiling or Edison's experiments can certainly squeeze near the end of 19th century. Electricity to Electronic is as close to a few decades of shared patents than massive Oil fields are since they grew in numbers & exploitation.
All within about 1850-1915.
Don't forget USA civil war either, it marked huge social changes that lead to extreme productivity, the very source of "Modernized" Industry concepts (aka- second Industrial revolution).
The main problem with Modern is that Atomic Theory is pivotal & that Einstein's Relativity is one of its triggering principles if not through nuclear application(s) & then a leap to Quantum Mechanics. Tesla's coiling or Edison's experiments can certainly squeeze near the end of 19th century. Electricity to Electronic is as close to a few decades of shared patents than massive Oil fields are since they grew in numbers & exploitation.
All within about 1850-1915.
Don't forget USA civil war either, it marked huge social changes that lead to extreme productivity, the very source of "Modernized" Industry concepts (aka- second Industrial revolution).
Again, these mostly represent an improper sequencing symptom - only.
Aluminum cannot be produced without huge amounts of Megawatts for example.
A battleship i supposed to be a stronger naval asset than destroyer.
Economics is Smith's influence written all over,
Biology is almost Darwin's contribution in general... thus, without Oil you can't replace Horse'Power by Co2 emission_propulsion.
Printing Press... democratic communications.
I don't think "Stirrup" measures up to the grandiose almost mythical term Chivalry, either. However accurate it may seem. I dunno, stirring feels more like i don't have enough BBQ sauce on my steak.
But Medecine certainly *is* a major discipline rather the invention of Penicilline, in which case it doesn't belong in Modern but can go as far back as Renaissance and even Medieval.
ash88
Hail to the King Baby -DN
I'm unhappy. A lot of people are unhappy. They just don't give a damn anymore so most of them don't post as often to express their unhappiness
Ahriman
Tyrant
The article link uses 1850 as its definition for the Second Industrial Revolution.
The Industrial era is properly both the first and second industrial revolutions. Very few countries were at all industrialized by 1850.
Ages and techs are defined not just by when they are first discovered, but when they become widespread and applied.
For example, the Steam Engine tech isn't really about the first modern steam engine for pumping water out of mines, its about widespread use of railroads.
Flight isn't the Wright Brothers, its effective combat aircraft.
The modern age to me is the atomic age, WW1-era stuff doesn't really belong there.
I disagree, its not about sequencing, its about bizarre links between techs and their gameplay effects.
Oil wells shouldn't come from biology, they should come from a Refining tech.
Battleships shouldn't come from telegraph, they should come from naval or gunnery techs.
Hydropower plants shouldn't come from plastics. Plastics could allow, for example, a Mall buildnig that gives +1 gold citizen.
Missile cruisers shouldn't come from robotics. Robotics should allow an Assembly plant.
Windmills shouldn't come from economics. Economics should give gold advantages.
Stock exchanges shouldn't come from electricity, they should come from The Corporation.
Chivalry is a mythical term, not a technological innovation. You don't have to have a Romantic honor code to have heavy cavalry.
Its also very bizarre in a game that is about more than western Europe.
Good steak shouldn't be smothered in bbq sauce - it is delicious by itself.
Medicine belongs in the industrial era - practical application of germ theory of disease. Medieval and Renaissance medical treatment was almost entirely ineffective, often worse than placebo.
This is also when you start getting big population growth rates because of declining death rates due to medical advances.
* * *
I guess my main point is: the Civ5 vanilla design over-streamlined, one of the main goals of a revised tech tree should be to relax the constraints by adding a few more techs, allowing for more dependencies, and moving out of such strict military/economy tech lines.
I much welcome this thread
While in the phase of ideas, formation, I would like to drop in my idea that can be found in my signature:
about the conditioned tech tree - how do you find it? I ask of the idea, first, at this point...
While in the phase of ideas, formation, I would like to drop in my idea that can be found in my signature:
about the conditioned tech tree - how do you find it? I ask of the idea, first, at this point...
I *DO* agree with this too.
It must be my obsession with superfluous details that brings too much precision in any given pathways - in theory.
As i said earlier;
...where the whole risky endeavor can make or brake the entire tree into a soup bowl of irrelevant and/or pointless steps.
But, i think i'm done here with the warnings. Or, even generalistic comments.
Simply said, Ramesses can decide whatever he must -- it's his ITT project. As proven by the swift Barter insertion in the 21/12 update above... *BUT* not a hint on what we both argued about; Ages, Strategic Resources & everything else.
Puzzling. I'd like to contribute even more but if ignored i should simply leave it to others to propose acceptable key concepts. Besides, i gotta get busy with the remaining v1135 tests... then actually work on;
1) Z-EraCorner.lua+xml & its button & popups while putting the final spreadsheet XLS file online for statistical gathering of opinions by players in a Forum post; What's best (TUBW) for any Victory conditions per Eras, etc.
2) LeoPaRd framework and ACE integration via some tricky variable Notifications process.
3) Fixing the 1upT concept with transitional movement directions for Units (12 in total, ZoC ruleset, etc).
4) Producing a few extra Z-UI's, green inspired first!
5) And a whole bunch of other stuff!!
In the meantime, as a rule of thumb for ITT... Keep-It-Simple-Stupid!
Cuz right now, techs count stands at 74 - (too high, too low, i dunno) - i doubt 96-104-127-148...+ would help or enhance gameplay for any good reasons other than unbearable complexity. Based on Your or anybody's premise, btw.
I'm not abandoning you Ramesses, see ya in a few days or weeks.
Ramesses
Ruler. Visionary. Pimp.
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I much welcome this thread
While in the phase of ideas, formation, I would like to drop in my idea that can be found in my signature:
about the conditioned tech tree - how do you find it? I ask of the idea, first, at this point...
There is merit in the idea, but I don't think it should be done. If you seal off all the useless choices and leave only the useful choices, that takes away quite a bit of decision-making. It's up to the player to decide if a technology is worth pursuing, and to learn that, for instance, actively pursuing naval techs without a coastal city will lead to swift failure.
I just want you to know that I'm not blocking you out or anything. I read everyone's suggestions. The reason I added Barter was for 2 reasons: It was the first suggested tech that allowed building of Trading Posts (so it will continue to be there unless a better suggestion comes along to fulfill that effect; and it was suggested in the format I requested.
The thing is, I'm a very analytical person. For this sort of project, I prefer straight suggestions to lengthy discussion and justification. That doesn't mean you can't still do that, especially if the change is pretty major and requires some explanation, but starting your post with a separate block of text containing a brief summary of your suggestions makes it far more likely for your suggestions to make it to the list.
For instance, in the last few points I read a little back-and-forth on Medicine and where it should appear. I'm now considering adding "Medicine" (or "Germ Theory" or "Modern Medicine") to the late-game tech list, but the problem is that, at the moment, the technologies of Biology and Penicillin are not of any major importance, besides the fact that Biology lets you build Oil Wells, but that placement just doesn't make sense to me (which is why neither are up in Key Techs). And Medicine is not particularly important in Civ IV; Health in that game is hardly ever a major concern, so Hospitals really aren't that useful.
So what I need in a suggestion to add "Medicine", or any other technology, are some important effects which can be assigned to that technology. Particularly, if it allows you to do something you couldn't do up until that stage in the game (like establishing trade routes in the ancient era, or building nukes in the industrial era). Or, failing that, one super-powerful effect (falling short of the ability to build Giant Death Robots).
