Jaguar vs. Gallic Warrior vs. Praetorian -> How to fix the Jaguar?

[Paeanblack]

How about a different approach to improving the Jaguar?

Jaguar: -50% Unit Maintenance cost

This would make them even better at choking and harassing.

 

[Roxlimn]

parachute4u:

That's the right way to use them. At higher difficulty settings, it CAN be difficult to rush with Jags if you come up against Protective leaders or leaders with Bowmen, but otherwise, they're pretty spiffy.

The Aztec Swordsman offensive is so radically different from normal Swordsmen offensives that people think they're useless; and they would be if all they could do was a weaker version of the standard unit's capabilities.

As an alternative, you could have settled one settler very near to the target Civ while teching Iron Working, preferably both self-supporting in terms of upkeep and having good production (but just good production/growth will do). Beeline IW. As soon as IW hits, whip Jags like you're insane. Works remarkably well - as well as your experience in many instances.

 

[Mik1984]

Jaguar is a warrior that doesn't use any metal weapons, so it should be inferior. Maybe instead of having it improved, it should be made available early, like with masonry? Just like the Ziggurat no improvement, just early availability.

 

[Artichoker]

How important is being resourceless for an UU?

Very important...especially if one of your traits is Aggressive.

Jaguars production does not require Iron to be hooked up, but at what cost? Iron is plently on most maps types, especially in most commonly used climate types. In most of my Immortal games on Pangea Temperate climate maps, almost all AIs had Iron in their proximity. I opened many maps with the world editor and almost all have Iron somewhere not further than 8-10 squares of the starting location.

Furthermore, the AI rarely searches for IronWorking first and does not know the location of the Iron before you do. Hence, the probability of him settling the Iron is rather low. Even if it settled the Iron by chance, you still could do an immense archer or chariot rush to capture the Iron city and switch to swordman-based unit production.

Therefore, the only good things about not requiring Iron are:

1) No need to research the wheel to hook up the Iron. A minimal plus considering you will need Wheel technology anyway to hook up other resources and to grow your city.
2) No turns wasted in hooking up the Iron with workers. Hooking up Iron would mean:

a) settling your city near the Iron (you would have settled near the Iron anyway to take advantage of the +3 hammer bonus, so it makes little sense not wanting to settle near the Iron)
b) Time required to build the mine=12 turns in Marathon (again negligible, you would have mined the Iron anway to take advantage of the hammer production bonus)
c) hooking up with roads, approximately 6-12-18 turns with a single worker. I am only counting the time lost connecting the Iron to one city, because you would have connected the 2 cities with roads anyway to create a trade route.

You're missing the most important advantage: being guaranteed access to the unit, which plays the role of an Aggressive-boosted city attacker that can be used either with or without Catapults.

In the case that Copper is not available, a quick tech advance of Iron Working does not pose the risk of not finding Iron, since it would still enable production of the unit.

In conclusion, while on theory being resourceless might sound historically correct, cool, and good looking, in CivIV practice, being resourceless is an extremely poor bonus, definitely not worth in explaining why some UU gets a strength reduction.

It's very useful if you want to win a high percentage of your games, played not only with favorable conditions but also unfavorable conditions...

 

[Ibian]

I dont understand what the problem everyone see is.

There is a lot of forest in the early game, which is exactly what jags want. Use the promo for woods II and you got a 2-move unit that no other single unit can remove from a forest tile. Even if you need to wait for cats to take some hill cities, the jags can easily stop any expansion. And you dont need iron or anything else to make them so IW is a safe beeline.

 

[Iranon]

Being resourceless is relevant, even if you always have iron. It means your conquests can whip out semi-useful units before they are connected to your trade network, and they can even get to the frontline more quickly thanks to Woodsman II.
Being able to build them as soon as you have Iron Working researched is also good. Iron or copper is usually readily available; having a worker on standby and a settler on the way means connecting it shouldn't take long but a slight time advantage remains.

You have a practically unlimited supply of auxillary healers for minor stacks.

I wouldn't dream of complaining about any UU with a free useful promotion.

In practice, Woodsman II is better than it should be because the AI always underestimates the units' mobility. Strikes on un(der)defended workers/cities are successful more often thant they should be because AIs are idiots.

Woodsman III is arguably the best promotion there is, having it in reach so easily is nice.

***

To the beancounter, it's one of the weakest UUs (A Jaguar who spends a promotion on Combat II is equal to a Swordsman with Woodsman I... you essentially lose your AGG bonus).
Their advantages, however, are easily leveraged and give the Aztecs a very unique and enjoyable playstyle. I rate them about average in terms of general usefulness, with bonus points for style and fitting the atmosphere of their civ extremely well.

 

[troytheface]

Average? Gallic Sword and Jaguars are the best uu's in the game. Sword and horse dominate. A sword uu enhanced with movement is damn near overpowering.
Preatorians are lumbering, iron dependant white elephants, and phanalx's are underpowered slow marching sluggards.

 

[Cornhog]

I didn't read the entire thread here... But isn't the obvious idea to combine both resources and resourceless?

If you build a jaguar without iron, it has reduced power. If you build it with iron, it has normal swordsman power. It keeps its woodsman bonus, but its primary bonus is that iron (while nice) isn't necessary.

The same would go for camel archers and the like. They get their standard power ratings when the resources are present. Their bonus is that you still get a good, functional unit when no resources are present.

 

[Mik1984]

Better idea:
Woodsman II and Guerrilla II now give +20% attack vs. the power land, so that GI and WI bonuses are nullified, as well as units completely untrained to fight in a special type of hard terrain are worse off than if they were in open ground when attacked by a bunch of good old Rambo's with GIII or WIII.

 

[Mik1984]

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[Iranon]

@ troytheface: Even though I love all the ways the mobility promotions can be (ab)used, in addition to the medic stuff, I stand by my rating of average.

Swordsmen are the number 1 can opener for quite some time. The Woodsman line isn't very useful for that, so you are in effect losing 2 promotions from your primary city attackers (2* 'combat' needed to get to the default strength of 6). This is something I can't ignore, never mind how much I love using the unit.
If you consider speed to be so very useful, I'm surprised you don't consider War Chariots and Immortals the top units...

 

[Chieron]

I didn't read the entire thread here... But isn't the obvious idea to combine both resources and resourceless?

If you build a jaguar without iron, it has reduced power. If you build it with iron, it has normal swordsman power. It keeps its woodsman bonus, but its primary bonus is that iron (while nice) isn't necessary.

The same would go for camel archers and the like. They get their standard power ratings when the resources are present. Their bonus is that you still get a good, functional unit when no resources are present.

This would actually be the best fix for this kind of problem, just allow the non-unique units alongside the unique ones. (except when the UUs are obviously better, that is have ONLY boni and no drawbacks)
So Rome(cheaper SM), Azteca(better Cityattacker), Japan(with Bronze, lacking Iron) and Arabia(higher strength) should also be able to build their UUs' basic unit if they fullfill the requirements.
The Jags might then be just a crappy UU, but the Aztecs wouldnt be worse off than other civs with (next to) useless UUs (Landsknecht, Panzer, .. anything badly placed or insignificant)
As it stands, Azteca has a bad city-taking potential until maces as it lacks the high strength attacker. Jags are nice harassers, but the cost is city conquest.

 

[vicawoo]

We need a standardized phrase for this. I liked it when someone used "holy thread resurrection, batman!"

How about whipping immediately and camping outside all enemy cities?

 

[Guardian_PL]

Yeah, go and camp with Your army while Your treasury goes to sink, as well as research.

I said it ages ago on the first page here and I say this again - make Jags 6 and job done. Tampering with free bonuses/promotions can create a mess later on when Jags will upgrade. Leaving them strength of a swordsman is an elegant and simple solution

 

[kniteowl]

I think of it from this point of view,

Why are Jags 5 str and not 6 str?

Would a 6 str Jag be overpowered? from a theory point of view, no not really when you compare it to other UUs that have both negatives and positives,

eg- Dog soldier, Vulture, Cataphract

If the units above didn't have a negative to balance our their positive, they would be arguably overpowered

but the Jag porbably more or less would not be overpowered if they were 6 str, I agree that they should be 5 str without iron and 6 str with iron hooked up.

Then why did the creators of the game make Jags 5 str in the 1st place and not 6 str? Well look at their Swords... they arn't made out of metal lol...

 

[Roxlimn]

6 Str Swordsmen with movement 2 and better defense in Forests, resourceless, and Combat 1?

I recognize that the move 2 and Combat one are not native to the unit, but that's how it's going to be in the game. Why is this not overpowered?

 

[kazapp]

Some UUs are simply better than others, and one of them must be the worst.

No (official) change needed. Otherwise by the same logic Praetorians or Quechas should be reduced too...

 

[troytheface]

it would be overpowered. simplistic reasoning from youth whine for "more strength" because they neither have the finesses or strategic where with all to utilize anything that is not "walk up and bash them with catapults and uu's"
it is a bit touching in its naivete, i suppose, "give them more strenth" in addition to...
resourcelessness, aggressive with free combat and woodsman. Like a kid that wants more- understandable and completely counter intuitive to making units "unique".
anyone that struggles with a jag is predisposed to noble and below and would be better served playing a simple added strength uu so they don't get confused and cry home to mama if they lose a few units.

 

[slobberinbear]

I have written on the use of Jags in my strategy article in my signature.

To summarize, Jags as they are currently conceived are useful in three ways:

1. An early city attacker with Woodsman II, capitalizing on surprise and movement and underdefended AI cities;
2. A "raider" used for worker stealing and pillaging; and
3. a standard swordsman in late classical age city-busting stacks with catapults.

I see nothing wrong with the unit, as it does all three functions just fine. This "role flexibility" and resourceless construction makes it a great early unit. While I appreciate the OP's frustration (which essentially boils down to having a reduced strength of 5), the Jaguar Warrior fits Monty just fine.

 

[WilliamOfOrange]

True, but Monty is nothing great imo. The UB is good his traits are average and his starting techs leave a lot to be desired imo.

I don't know if this has been mentioned already in the Jag-slam, but Monty can reach Theology quite quickly with his starting Mysticism. Hunting is need for Archery, which is needed for Horse Archers. Diversify your stack and the "weakness" of the Jag is not so apparent. Horse units and Woodsman II Jags can keep pace using different paths and can reach a city at the same time. His aggressive trait gives him quick barracks and so with the free CI and Woodsman, the Jag has got some options for promotions. As someone stated early in the thread, mixed stacks are the way to go. If people are complaining about the difficulty in taking cities with Jags, maybe they are missing something.