Jake’s Guide to Religion

[Silverfuturist]

I totally agree with you on this. EVENTUALLY, this is a useful belief (with universities and trading posts). But it takes a long time to get to that point (usually early rennesance by the time the TPs and university are built). I am looking for more immediate benefits from my pantheon belief.

Let me recap - the instant I took that pantheon I had an extra +2 culture per turn from my 2 bananas. Settler policy came faster, by time second city founded I had +4 culture per turn, it was like having France'e ability for free, and by time free worker policy came I was getting MORE than +2 culture per turn per city, which is better than France! Is that a long time?

 

[JakeIL7]

Asceticism is a huge linchpin in ICS strategies. Some people are of the opinion that religion happiness perhaps need to be re-looked at, but it's easier to get 3 followers in many cities than it is to say get 5 followers and a temple, or a Pagoda in every city without delaying teching... or even gardens. It's hard to describe how the value of many beliefs shifts when you up your game and drastically reduce the amount of time you spend in each age in order to keep up. .

Fury ,

I have to totally disagree with you on this. Yes, you do need +happy in an ICS game, but you probably will stop building shrines in your cities pretty quickly. I would much rather have a faith building, even at deity, and down the on something more useful.

Of course, if it is the only thing left, you may need to take it.

 

[JakeIL7]

Let me recap - the instant I took that pantheon I had an extra +2 culture per turn from my 2 bananas. Settler policy came faster, by time second city founded I had +4 culture per turn, it was like having France'e ability for free, and by time free worker policy came I was getting MORE than +2 culture per turn per city, which is better than France! Is that a long time?

Kinda. You are doing better than France *in that city* and earlier SPs are better. But this not only seems like an outlier to me (a city with two banana available early), it also is one I would consider avoiding for another belief even with the case you mention. But, as you can tell I am not a big fan of the +culture pantheons; I am always looking for faith, food, and happiness (in that order).

 

[Furycrab]

Fury ,

I have to totally disagree with you on this. Yes, you do need +happy in an ICS game, but you probably will stop building shrines in your cities pretty quickly. I would much rather have a faith building, even at deity, and down the on something more useful.

Of course, if it is the only thing left, you may need to take it.

Shrines are the cheapest building period (hammer wise). Getting 3 followers is easier than getting a garden, certainly easier than a temple, and you won't have the faith for a faith building in each city if you are both properly ICSing and properly teching. The general idea is that early game you ICS on Luxes and build shrines. Mid game you expand on the lamer spots and connect the cities with meritocracy, keep building shrines (+2 happy base each city) and then as you hit 8-10 cities you start having enough faith per turn to enhance your religion, hopefully get a good Faith building and start popping them in every city.

By doing this, you leave your options quite open for your Founder Belief (you aren't screwed if CB is already taken), and you'll be floating on happiness in the late game.

I'd say go watch MadDjinn Mayan LP for an example, but that's perhaps a weird case since his early game got sent into a tailspin by an AI's religion. The general idea is still there though.

 

[JakeIL7]

Well, two thoughts on that: first, I will build shrines early, but once I have religion I typically stop building them. Second, the Maya are a special case: Pyramids are OP and you will build them everywhere for the science. I do understand what you are saying though, I just have not seen a case where I have not had another choice.

 

[Furycrab]

Well, two thoughts on that: first, I will build shrines early, but once I have religion I typically stop building them. Second, the Maya are a special case: Pyramids are OP and you will build them everywhere for the science. I do understand what you are saying though, I just have not seen a case where I have not had another choice.

You can do the same thing with almost any other ICSy civ, Arabia and France being my favorite.

The reason I mention asceticism is that you rate it so low when it's like one of the more useful ones. Getting a building first as a follower belief might make it so you get the one you really wanted, however you end up in a situation where you won't have the faith to build them for some time.

What tends to happen is something along these lines if you want a religion that is...

Shrine early, hopefully get a pantheon sometime before turn 40 (odds of this may vary)
Build up your FPT, your goal being to have about 8-10 FPT, any lower and on deity at least, you risk not having a religion at all.
200 faithish: GP, found religion. On deity this usually needs to happen somewhere before or very close to turn 70.

If Ceremonial burial is still there, then you can pick that and whatever you take for a follower is fairly flexible. If not, then Asceticism is your best bet. Heck you can grab both and kiss happiness problems goodbye, but if you pick asceticism, you can pick practically any founder belief and it will work, cept pilgrimage, that's terrible.

Like I said, getting a building as your first follower increases your odds of both getting one and getting say... Pagodas. However your next 200 faith won't be till turn 90ish less something crazy happens and I'm fairly certain that the first 200 faith is better spent on either a missionary to spread it to your other cities, or saving it and going straight to enhancing your religion.

A good combo for example if it's available, is to go Religion, Church Property and Asceticism, Missionary at the next 200 faith to spread it... Now all your cities get +2gold and when they hit a minimum of 3 followers +1 happy and if you are ICSing, and an AI religion isn't being Deity goofy on you, all your cities you will build will get that as opposed to just getting that faith building first and only getting the one bonus in the one city and hating your other cities for not swapping religions fast enough.

 

[chazzycat]

I agree asceticism is a good one for ICS type games. Getting 3 followers and a shrine is relatively quick & easy to accomplish compared to most of the other requirement like gardens, temple and 5, etc. But pagodas are the bomb.

 

[JakeIL7]

Well, I knew that people were going to disagree with me on some of my rankings. Ill see what I can do about integrating your comments into the article when I get to a real computer.

 

[chazzycat]

how do people feel about taking a prophet from the liberty finisher and using that to enhance your religion? I have been doing that lately and I like how it works out. That way your second 200 faith goes straight to a missionary to get the spread started, so when you get religious texts from your enhancement it really spreads like wildfire. Of course that requires a liberty start which is not ideal on a lot of maps, but in those instances, it's working well for me.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Well, I knew that people were going to disagree with me on some of my rankings. Ill see what I can do about integrating your comments into the article when I get to a real computer.

Actually, what I've noticed mostly is that some of the powers just really stink no debate necessary. Hopefully we'll get a balance patch soon.

 

[JakeIL7]

how do people feel about taking a prophet from the liberty finisher and using that to enhance your religion? I have been doing that lately and I like how it works out. That way your second 200 faith goes straight to a missionary to get the spread started, so when you get religious texts from your enhancement it really spreads like wildfire. Of course that requires a liberty start which is not ideal on a lot of maps, but in those instances, it's working well for me.

I have a hard time giving up the GE which is what I usually pick. But even if you want a GP, you might consider building the HS (if available) and taking that GP for your enhancement. That way you deny the HS to someone else and get the other minor benefits from it.

 

[Western guy]

It should be noted for other G&k newbies that if you capture a great prophet and then use him to spread religion he will spread te religion of whoever you captured him from still and not your own. Learned this the hard way.

 

[Furycrab]

I have a hard time giving up the GE which is what I usually pick. But even if you want a GP, you might consider building the HS (if available) and taking that GP for your enhancement. That way you deny the HS to someone else and get the other minor benefits from it.

The problem I have with doing this, is you end up increasing both your GP and Great Prophet costs in exchange for a Wonder that gives you +3 faith? (can't remember off hand and this cpu can't play Civ for the life of it). Not doing so means your first GP will likely still just cost 100 gpoints.

I'd only really consider this option if I'm going for a cultural game and I need a wonder in as many of my cities I can get.

 

[chazzycat]

I don't think he means use the liberty finisher GE to build HS, rather hard-building it as an alternative to get the prophet. That would indeed be dumb.

 

[Silverfuturist]

Kinda. You are doing better than France *in that city* and earlier SPs are better. But this not only seems like an outlier to me (a city with two banana available early), it also is one I would consider avoiding for another belief even with the case you mention. But, as you can tell I am not a big fan of the +culture pantheons; I am always looking for faith, food, and happiness (in that order).

I said I was getting more than +2 culture per city. Also on a jungle start the resources have jungle over them, before they are worked and the city boundaries spread to other jungle tiles, you get the culture from them. Also on a jungle start 2 bananas is not uncommon for capital on standard settings. Remember I said this pantheon is jungle dependant.

I find culture very strong with GK, and my opinion comes from only playing deity (and crushing it) for SP and being a top ranked player on MP.

Here is an example why:
1. blow thru liberty, settle free person as manufactory
2. get great admiral from commerce to cross oceans in medi era
3. get +3 hammers per coastal city in commerce unless landlocked map (I try to make mostly coastal cities)

All that usually happens before renaissance! Then in ren. I open rationalism and blow thru that tree. With rationalism changed, I get the 3 tech boosters right in a row. A game with 1000 sci per turn is a weak game for me now, thank u culture!!!

 

[Question]

Maybe its just me but the faith buildings are only useful if you are going wide? If you go tall, you end up running out of stuff to spend faith on, and unless you went piety, all those extra great prophets are...not very useful.

 

[Alpenjager]

You should mention that if there are as many pantheons like releigions available, noone can found a new pantheon after one nation improved it's religion.

 

[Silverfuturist]

Maybe its just me but the faith buildings are only useful if you are going wide? If you go tall, you end up running out of stuff to spend faith on, and unless you went piety, all those extra great prophets are...not very useful.

Good point - going wide with faith buildings is killer. I can see how going tall wouldn't be as good.

 

[Furycrab]

Maybe its just me but the faith buildings are only useful if you are going wide? If you go tall, you end up running out of stuff to spend faith on, and unless you went piety, all those extra great prophets are...not very useful.

More accurate is that if you go tall you will be running decently low on Faith, it's more difficult to spread and very easy to subvert under someone else religion.

There are practical reasons to why they would make the religion system spread as it is. Even if I would love it if it was somewhat proportional to City size, and religious building... I then sit down and remember that if that was the case, I'd never have a dominant religion on Deity. You should invest more heavily in getting a good religion if you are going wide and perhaps consider passing on religion entirely if you are going Tall or at least restrict yourself to just trying to get it going in your core Cities.

 

[JakeIL7]

Hopefully I have addressed some of your concerns in my latest edits. Also, I think I have the pressure formula worked out but I am not sure if it is dependent on game speed or map size...