Jan III Sobieski

[Nicheal]

-The Tech Tree to research is very short

-The most Improvements seem to be out of game/the Icons are sad

-Cities like Berlin or Constantinople (!) are ugly spots almost out of map

-All Wonders given to Poland so that the City List shows Poland and nothing else:
Would be better to give all available Wonders in game to give them to Constantinople,
Vienna, Moscow, Dresden and then perhaps Warsaw.

-Why only playable Poland? AND: If only playable Poland, why are Austria-Hungary,
why is Prussia, why is Russia too weak and Poland such strong? Why will the human
Player be such strong with Poland-Lithuania, and all the others as AI are such weak?

-The most Towns are easy to conquer, but the greatest are nearly impossible, why
is there only one silly cannon and no possibility to research a bigger one?

-The most Events are a long journey for Sobieski and Poland, for sure, and i get
Saxons and Bavarians for defending Vienna, but why get these Turks no Armies
to ATTACK Vienna? The only Armies are to attack Ukraine and Poland (long gone and dead!)

-Played at highest difficulty and had a bit challenge, but now in Jan 1684 my Armies
march on and are reaching Constantinople and the target to pass the Donau (Danube) at
several points. There is no real chance for the AI to defeat my Armies.

-The first Events Cheat conquered Ukraine by the Turks, but with enough Grenadiers
in town AND a town wall it is nearly impossible to conquer anything. I did not build
the most cheap Unit Types and disbanded the most cheap Defenders for Grenadiers only.
With town walls and some good old Poland Hussars and Cannons i conquer everything
while the most enemie units fail to conquer anything.

-I thought at the beginning, all my towns have town walls. That was a graphics bug (i forgot)
As the Turks attacked my sweet little Ukraine, wonders hell, all the town walls are -swoosh- gone.
That was the only point the Turks had to conquer a bit: Cause i did not see i had no town walls in fact.
These damned have no Maintenance, yes, cause town walls are cheap Improvements,
but with a zero Maintenance there is no notice in F5 Improvements and i cannot see
how many town walls i have, i must check every single town.

Nice graphics for Terrain and Units, these Units i like much. It could be a great game,
but there are many faults, i think.

I would include a list of city names for each nation as the AI is founding a lot without names.

yes.

Other than these minor issues everything else is fine.

no.



​

 

[McMonkey]

A bit of a harsh assessment Nicheal. I play a lot of Civ2 and I think I'm a good example of an average player (IE not a novice) and I have found the scenario pretty challenging so far.

I seem to have things just about under control in the Ukraine but making progress against the Turks is difficult. Their campaign in the east is one of attrition and I can't build up my strength elsewhere to go onto the offensive.

To me it sounds like you are an above average player who has read the situation well and has taken the steps needed to gain victory. I think with a few tweaks to the events Nikoagonistes could get the balance spot on for average players like myself and more skilled players like you. I don't mind playing a tougher scenario that I lose on my first attempt/s as it is more satisfying when I finally complete it.

- I agree that the tech tree is quite short. It could be padded out with a few filler techs to last longer into the game.

- I think it is clear why the game is only playable as Poland-Lithuania, just check the title!

- I don't see Berlin or Istanbul's positions to be a big problem and there is no way to expand the map without building the scenario again (AFAIK).

- One of the Polish wonders is the Great Wall that gives all cities walls!

 

[Nicheal]

O? Sorry, Dudes! To be honest, Nikoagonistes said that he works on that since 2007.
So i played that and its fun stuff quite well, but as i said, there are some bad faults i think.
Listed these, without any point of aggression or negativity, out of my opinion, nothing else or more!!!

For example, i like all these different Unit Types and Dresden looks awesome with these
Railroad-built Suburb Function all around, this all is welldone to me and gives a taste of that time.
But these Unit Types are all done as every Modder does, an example:

Musketeers [Pol], Chi, 0, 3.,0, 5a,4d, 2h,1f, 3,0, 1, nil, 000000000000000
Pikemen [Pol], Chi, 0, 3.,0, 4a,5d, 2h,1f, 3,0, 1, nil, 000000000000000

i saw that in every CIV2 Scenario i played, or in the most. There is a huge effort to get 80
great Units as great graphics, but the Unit Values look often like every Unit is the same weak Value.
For sure i wont build these Unit Types, while the Poland Dragoon defends better and is faster!
And then i only build Grenadiers, and three Grenadiers in town plus town walls and

the most enemie units fail to conquer anything.

so what! And yes, since i began to modd CIV2 Test of Time, my Skills grew to
understand that game and since that i can play on highest difficulty, sry.
But is that not annoying to everybody, if you want to attack for example Frankfurt,
and o yes, even six Cannons Veteran cannot kill this damned Fortress?

I think it is clear why the game is only playable as Poland-Lithuania, just check the title!

Ha! Ha! Ha!
Yes for sure. But it is not necessary to limit a Scenario. To cheat Poland its Units
and for example Brandenburg nothing... what does that tell us?
That one general Events.txt would cheat Poland Units, if Sobieski is HumanPlayer or not,
and to play Austria-Hungary would be more challenging, either!

I don't see Berlin or Istanbul's positions to be a big problem and there is no way to expand the map without building the scenario again (AFAIK).

Even i , today, asked myself, if the opinion, the imagination, the idea to modd a new thing,
was thought enough, or would another master plan, another map, another art be
better for gameplay. And i think, that to conquer the greatest enemies capital in game,
the Ottomans and Constantinople, would be a great major target to me.

One of the Polish wonders is the Great Wall that gives all cities walls!

ok. Thnx for that. Even i , cannot see everything.

To me it sounds like you are an above average player who has read the situation well and has taken the steps needed to gain victory.

no. I play ever the same. I knew that Poland defended Vienna, and so i took these
Imperials and Vienna for Allies, then fighted versus the weak Enemies like Brandenburg
and Crimean Tartars, while Sweden and Russia and Ottomans wanted to be beaten...

I try to not build cheap and weak Units, try to disband these Units step by step to
advance a modern and strong and fast Army, greetings from Napoleon and Guderian,
and, what you should know, and thats a huuuuuge point in that Scenario:
You can modify your Tax and Lore and Luxury Rate at the beginning of that Scenario much!!!
So i conquered here and there and researched fast to get my Grenadiers.

The point is, that for example to fight all the time versus Russia is a good thing:
Hordes of weak Infantry and Cavalry come to capture the Eastern Towns, while these
Towns can be defended by a few Grenadiers behind walls. Thats the point.
To kill a Cannon sometimes and thats the only thing you must do to freak these Enemies off,
and the Ottomans also.
Then you send these Poland Hussars, Cannons and Grenadiers to conquer everything.
It is good for me, in my game, that the War versus every Enemy goes on and on,
cause it wastes its Units versus my Grenadiers behind walls.

These Ottoman Attacks are easy to stop: The Ottomans conquered my Ukraine,
and Zhitomer had Town Walls plus four Grenadier Veterans. End of that Story.

That Scenario dont needs to be tougher in Event Cheats! Some more offense-better Units like
advanced Cannon and a bit harder Cavalry and Infantry in offense.
Some more Wonders to create huge Capitals like Constantinople, Vienna, Moscow and Dresden.
And the Events.txt has to cheat the Attack onto Vienna.


​

 

[McMonkey]

@Nicheal

No offense taken or intended. You have your opinion and I have mine. I totally understand what you are saying and I don't disagree with you, most of the changes you suggest make sense. I was just trying to make the point that I didn't find the scenario's challenge as lacking as you did. For me the difficulty was about right and with a little bit of tweaking could be perfect.

By the way, did you try my Fortress Europe scenario? I would love to hear your views. I put a lot of effort into the events and I find it very challenging myself. It would be interesting to see how a skilled player like you gets on.

 

[Hans99]

@ Nichael

I think you cannot make the perfect scenario that fits everyone. But in my opinion Jan III Sobieski has the same "effect" as the old frederick the great scenario. It is not only fun to play, it also educates the player or awakens interests, or do you know why those polish dragoons had those so called angel wings ?

Also Making the scenario for every faction will make it much more difficult for the creator as he has to deal with a lot more alternatives and possibilities. So i think making this scenario for just the polish faction was a wise decision as it allows for resource concentration.

About the unit stats i give you right, for as they always need some fine tuning in the end. And very often this AI also needs to be recognized.

 

[Hans99]

@niko...

Played the first four years. Reconquered south ukraine and moldova, my home country, going ro strike into romania next time.

One error ist, that the cities in transylvania are set to produce curland infantry.

so long

 

[Nikoagonistes]

OK, this is probably waaay to late for a reply, but, first, a few words in response to some of Nicheal's criticisms:

-Yes, there is an event-created Turkish army (94 units!) that attacks Vienna. If the area between Vienna and Buda is within your "line of sight," then you should be able to see it. Even if you don't, you should still get the event where the fall of the Austrian fortress of Gyor is mentioned (it's triggered by the Pasha's attack on the "Austrian frontier" unit). Once this happens, get to Vienna (you should have allied yourself with the Imperials before then!) ASAP!

-I based the Russian infantry stats from the claim from the "Polish Renaissance Warfare" site that the Polish infantry of the 17th century was inferior to the Swedish and Dutch footsoldiers, but equal to their German counterparts and superior to their Muscovite equivalents, the latter of which tried to imitate the Western model of infantry but came up short. (It should be noted that this was before Peter the Great's complete overhaul of the Russian army.) So, it seemed logical to have Swede infantry > Polish and German infantry > Russian infantry. Though hopefully my adjusting will solve that problem.

-The Garrison unit is designed to make certain cities very tough nuts to crack. Frankfurt has one because I was sick of it being razed in the midst of the Brandenburg/Imperial wars the AI decided to whip up. I gave one to Jassy (the Moldavian capital) in order to simulate the effects of the Moldavian campaigns of the post-Vienna period (historically, the Commonwealth forces managed to burn down the capital, but failed in their ultimate objective of taking Moldavia from the the Turks' grasp) - the player can "get to" Jassy easy enough, but it'll take a lot of effort to capture the territory. I gave a Garrison to Turkish-occupied Kamieniec because, historically, it was hard to take; after its fall to the Turks, Sobieski (both as Hetman and as king) labored mightly to retake it, but failed every time. (It finally was returned to the Commonwealth in the 1699 Treaty of Karlowitz, after Jan's death.)

Nevertheless, you do have a point in that they were hard to take. I though about having some "Siege Cannon" units or something like that; however, the Turkish Camp unit (the destruction of which symbolizes the lifting of the siege and the relief of the city) is intended to be destroyable only by a specifically Commonwealth unit (such as the hussars, a unit of which famously arrived first into the Turkish camp, or a Hetman, or Sobieski himslef) - it would be ruined if the Camp unit was destroyed by a unit of another civ's AI Heavy Artillery. However, I did some playtesting and tweaked the so that, while you will probably have to have several artillery pieces besieging a city, cities with the Garrison unit can be taken.

-Single-player scenarios designed to be played as only one certain civ are quite commonplace in Civ 2 (Red Front, El Aurens, Frederick the Great, Lord of the One Ring etc.) Doing so allowed me to focus in on the theater I wanted and give it the level of detail I desired.

To give an example, let's look at two WW2 scenarios by Alex and Nemo: "2194 Days of War" and "Red Front." Both cover the Eastern Front; however, the latter scenario is able to cover the Russian theater in much more detail because it is focused solely on that. Likewise, I would have had to make some thinks more "generic" if I had to make, say, the Hapsburgs or the Ottomans playable (and thus had to extend the scenario to include the former's conflicts with France over the Rhineland and the latter's Asiatic and Mediterranean interests, to name just a few things.)

OK, enough talk from me right now. Here's a rules files with some fixes. I didn't do anything to the tech tree (those have always been a problem for me), but I did make the research process a bit longer, as well as unit tweaks (the aforementioned ones and more!)

I might deal with the tech icons, but that might entail reworking the "categories" of all the techs, and I'm not looking forward to doing that...

 

[Nikoagonistes]

Well, today marks the anniversary of the Battle of Vienna, as well as the one-year anniversary of this scenario's release.

I've released an "improved" version of the scenario - basically I just put the tweaked rules from my prevous post into the scenario. Admittedly, I haven't really played Civ II in a while, but I though the update needed to be done (since around 100 people have DLed Sobieski, but only 10 or so got the new rules), and I added a new pic to the preview thing.

So, has anyone else played it yet? Played it again? If so, what did you think?

 

[Nicheal]

Hello. Not played another Game, Dude, sorry.

Had to download it again, HDD Crash anno November 2011... but had an over 7MB Package,
thought why. Your Scenario includes Sound, yes, and only the Scenario Basic Files,
and nothing like Imps (Improvement.bmps). Dude, your Package includes an 28MB Report.txt.
The Events.txt @DEBUG Line wrote over 28MB into the Report.txt, and you packed the whole Thing...

You told, your newest Rules.txt is included in your newest Package, in Download Data Base?
Downloaded it, deleted the Report.txt, deleted the @DEBUG Line out of your Event.txt.

And now, i will try a few Things, perhaps. All these Criticisms and Hints i gave to you,
to improve a very interesting Scenario, you not did, i will, perhaps.

At least more Wonders to make Istanbul greatest Town of the known Map, Dude...





Dudes and Folks!

The whole Criticisms i said about Nikoagonistes´ Scenario "Sobieski", one Year ago,
i can reaffirm, i found on Dictionary. In my Taste, Nikoagonistes made a huge Effort,
to get a smooth Terrain Graphics, to get really smooth and awesome little Soldiers,
British, Saxon, Bavarian, Prussian, Imperial (Austrian-Hungarian), that all is a quite
fantastic Work. But the Limits of the Map, the Limits of the Technology Tree,
of the City Improvements and Wonders, and the unbalanced World of 17. Centuries
Towns and rising Empires, that all is sad, Folks!

I took McMonkeys Map out of Aeterna Civitas II, the whole European Map with
North Africa and the far East, as Nikoagonistes took, and cut off, maybe.
But i must ask myself, Dudes and Folks, if i should create, simply a World of the
17. Century, by using the whole McM Map, to create simply the whole World of that Time.

Wouldnt it be a nice Scenario, to simply create the whole World of that Time?

And would my CIV2 Fellows follow me, to create that Scenario together?

It is a Shame i cannot conquer Istanbul in Nikoagonistes´ Scenario... yes, i can,
but it is only a tiny Spot at the Edge of the Map. What IF i use simply the whole Map,
to create the complete Ottoman Empire? Britain. The Franks or French instead of Sweden.
The Prussians. The Moscovite Empire. The Imperials as Austria-Hungary.
So what! We all here have CIV2 as little Fun, and are modding our lonely Scenarios.

What if we would create that 17. Century Scenario together?
And my first Question would be:

+Which Wonders should we use? For the

Prussian Berlin and Königsberg.
Saxon Dresden.
English London.
French Paris.
Russian Moscow.
Polish Warsaw.
Netherland Amsterdam.
Ottoman Istanbul.
Holy Rome.

And Portugal. Genoa. Venice. Which Wonders should we use?

+The 17. Century had many great Wars: The Thirty Years War 1618-1648, Wallenstein,
versus the King of Sweden. The Siege of Vienna. The Rise of the British Empire. The Fall of Spain.
I thought, i will spend the "All Veterans Wonder" to an Empire, and all around:
First Wallenstein and the Imperials, then the Ottomans, then perhaps the Prussians.

So we get the Thirty Years War, and Nikoagonistes´ Sobieski, and Tecumsehs Frederick the Great,
in one big Scenario, and one big, totally playable World! That was my Idea.
What do you say?
Would i get any Help?

+Nikoagonistes´ Empires are/ my Empires are currently:

Muscovites / yes
Crimean Tartars / French
House of Brandenburg / Prussians
Imperials / yes
Swedes / English, perhaps British
Poles and Lithuanians / yes
Ottoman Turks / yes

Zar Peter I the Great of the Muscovites
King Jan III Sobieski of the Poles and Lithuanians
Fürst Frederick II the Great of the Prussians
Kaiser Leopold I of the Imperials
Sun King Louis XIV of the French
King William III of the British
Sultan Mehmet IV of the Ottoman Turks

Spain, Netherlands, Morocco, Tartars, and all the others, like Denmark, Sweden, "Barbarians" or "Free Lands".

+Took McMonkeys European Map out of his excellent Aeterna Civitas II Scenario. That Map is the pure High Standard,
and was surely a huge Effort, highly welldone at last!!! And i changed two Terrain Types: Jungle (Orchids) into Forest,
Tundra into Desert, so that i will get two more available Terrain Types for my advanced Terrain Concept
(advanced Farmlands and Facilities to improve!). The Glacier also will fall to Dust, i will place the whole Settlers on the whole
Glacier Squares, and before founding, replace into Hills, so that i will get another TT for my aTC, and to get better defended Cities.
Then i will use that CivStack to place Airports. Thats the first Effort, i think.

+Would use "Basic Troopers", Pikeneers, Musketeers, Hussars, small Cannons, Privateers, Galleys, Caravels,
for free Choose, without any Prereqs, so that every Empire, and the FreeLanders also, could use Basic Armies,
Basic Fleets, and then give EVERY known Empire advanced Troopers, advanced Cannons for everybody, yeah, advanced Fortresses,
then Heroes, great Leaders, or Special Troopers. That are my Thoughts after 2 Days. Any Comments? Suggestions?

+Had quite another good Idea:
Read on Wiki, that King William III of England, ruled over Ire, Scotland and England, and the Netherlands.
Perhaps i will create a small but rising England, and small but mighty little Netherland, Portugal, Venice, and will give all that
to the English, so that i will get a huge Armada, and the Influence of a rising Sailing and Trading Nation.





O yes, @McMonkey or @CurtSibling, or @All, i would need a working ToT Title.gif out of this File added:

(Thought to call a possible 17th Century Scenario for Test of Time: BLOOD & SIEGES)

 

[McMonkey]

Great idea for a new scenario Nicheal. I have something similar in my projects folder using the European map, but it is unlikely I will find the time to work on it in the next few years. I understand what you are saying about a more free and open game, but Sobieski was designed to focus on a specific personality's career and a climactic campaign at the end. If Ghost of Disco (Nikoagonistes) has included the rest of Europe this would only have diluted this focus and forced him to use city unit and civ slots to represent countries that had no real influence on Sobieski's career.

 

[Nicheal]

Yes, i know. Tecumsehs Frederick the Great or Nikoagonistes´ Sobieski have a Focus on that
special few Years, and that special Heroes and Happenings of History, true.

My Problem was, that, for example Berlin, is only a tiny Spot at the Edge of the Map.
Thats for a German Guy like me... Istanbul is much more important to me, it is really a damned
Spot at the last southern Edge. Exported the Game Map, added Squares Western and Southern,
and thought, that might be the Map of McMonkey, just import his whole one...
My Problem is, that to just modify Nikoagonistes´ Scenario would cause, in my Mind,
that whole Effort i told above. To just modify his Scenario a bit, would not satisfy me at all.

And you are wrong, to say: There have to be used much more City, Unit or Civ Slots!!!
The Main Civs are all there already, and the most Troopers too. I work, currently, on that a bit,
just to see where it might end... the most needed Slots are already there.



DAMNED!!! 23.9.

Wanted to help Nikoagonistes, doing these Changes i told above. The Scenario he did,
is quite good, smooth Unit Gfx, Terrain Gfx, Town Gfx, really smooth.
Now i wanted to help him, doing some Changes like a bit huger Map, a bit more Wonders, Improvements, Tecs...
wanted to do all that a little Week, and then offer my Package for free Use... now it took (almost) ten Days,
and that Events.txt is a damned huge Package to work off. Hope, to release it, maybe some Days.



PAFFF!!! 28.9.

If i wont finish up that BLOOD & SIEGES Scenario, i will give it to you anyway...
succeeded in doing the most of the Stuff, but the so-called "Main Events/Happenings" are really damned Work!

The Events.txt is about 62,7 kb done, but the nearly 30 kb Main Happenings are missing yet,
the Story-Line of the Events.txt with Turn History Stuff, damned Work!
But i will give that whole Thing to you, if i lose my Mind finishing that, Folks. Nize Dayz to you all!



HIPPSADOODLE! 7.10.2012

LINK: BLOOD & SIEGES SCENARIO THREAD

LINK: BLOOD & SIEGES DOWNLOAD

Spoiler SCREENSHOT :

 

[Hans99]

Just played another few turns of Sobieski scen...

Reconquered my fathers land Bessarabia with polish hussars after listening to this nice music with hussars

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVezbVxp2Pw

Just thought i share this with you here.