Janissary and cannons - how to bulb and when to get?

[DanielTorrence]

Hi everybody,

I am playing on Emperor/Immortal and was thinking about a game that would make best use of the pre-rifle gunpowder UU some civs (Mehmet, Suleiman, Zara) have and combine it with a very early cannon siege. Did someone perhaps try that and can help me out here?

I thought l would
bulb Philosophy-->(self tech paper)-->bulb Education-->bulb Lib (not research Machinery)-->(self tech gunpowder)-->bulb chemistry-->(self tech machinery and engineering) --> then get lib in one turn and take steel from lib.

My questions are:
1) is my bulbing path correct? When I tried to bulb gunpowder after researching eduction my scientist bulbed printing press (probably because I had machinery before the bulb )
2) What civ would you suggest to try this best? I used Mehmet, but he is not philosophical so I had to pull some stunts (TGL, Cast, Pacifism) to get enough Great Scientists (five if you want an academy) in time
3) At what time would you say thats possible for a normal player (not talking about Absolute Zeros times )? I bulbed lib around 700 A.D. but had to research to chemistry and engineering, so it was more 1250 A.D. when I got lib and steel from it - I have no measure whether this is too late for musket type units or okay?

Thanks for your input.

 

[Smwat]

A Cuirrasser is much faster. Just self tech Nationalism and take Military Tradition. Self tech Gunpowder and start building.

 

[Noogai]

Take chemistry or steel from liberalism, depending on your tech lead (to lib).

 

[DanielTorrence]

...I mean, janissaries might not be that good, but oromos are, or from a protective leader, even muskets might be. Plus they upgrade to infantry with all their promotions, while Cavalry doesnt.
To get cannons from lib, how do I bulb chemistry?

 

[Windsor]

To bulb chemistry you'll need printing press, which easily can be bulbed once you got machinery.

Bulb list:
Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser (BTS)
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Chemistry

 

[NihilZero]

Personally, if I wanted to maximise my Janissaries, I'd be inclined to take Suleiman and forget the cannon. Just get Nationalism and draft them. Trebuchets will be fine. You could be beating somebody down in 800AD (earlier if things go your way) with trebuchets and Janissaries, or you could wait a few centuries more for cannon. The things is though, when you have cannon the units you use to mop up don't really matter since cannon kill just about everything.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

I thought l would
bulb Philosophy-->(self tech paper)-->bulb Education-->bulb Lib (not research Machinery)-->(self tech gunpowder)-->bulb chemistry-->(self tech machinery and engineering) --> then get lib in one turn and take steel from lib.

1 Bulb Philo
1 Bulb Edu
1 Bulb Lib

self tech gunpowder

Bulbing chem is tricky because you can't open up the bulb to lib path before you bulb chemistry. In the attempt I just did I forgot this and could only bulb PP.

Trade for Machinery and Engineering if you can.

If you get something other then a GS save and use for a golden age.

My questions are:
1) is my bulbing path correct? When I tried to bulb gunpowder after researching eduction my scientist bulbed printing press (probably because I had machinery before the bulb )

Get the bug mod it shows you the bulb path for each great person in the research tree. Helps a lot.

2) What civ would you suggest to try this best? I used Mehmet, but he is not philosophical so I had to pull some stunts (TGL, Cast, Pacifism) to get enough Great Scientists (five if you want an academy) in time

Suleiman is your man for Jannisarries, the philosophical trait will help you get where you want to go much quicker then expansive.

Forget TGLib and other wonders, you won't have time to make much use of them if you want the fastest possible cannon date.

3) At what time would you say thats possible for a normal player (not talking about Absolute Zeros times )? I bulbed lib around 700 A.D. but had to research to chemistry and engineering, so it was more 1250 A.D. when I got lib and steel from it - I have no measure whether this is too late for musket type units or okay?

I did a quick playthrough ( on deity ) as Suleiman. I worldbuildered in some mechanized infantry to deal with barbs so I didn't have to deal with that crap. I had 3 towns total and libbed steel in 680 AD. My land was pretty average with no stone and marble. I only built the oracle around 1800 and took CoL.

View attachment libsteel.CivBeyondSwordSave

Mao beat me to lib but I reloaded and worldbuilder-screwed him and put him out of the race

My guess is a consistent lib-steel on immortal should be about 700 AD.

Tech path should be ( as ottomans ) pottery->mining->BW-> if you have time to oracle then build oracle and pick CoL, otherwise go writing->math->Currency->CoL->CS ( and bulb philo )->paper->edu( 1bulb )->Gunpowder->chem( 1 bulb if you can )->lib( 1 bulb ) pick steel

In between there you should be backfilling techs with trades. Use your first GS to build an academy in your cottaged Bureaucracy capital. CoL is important here for running scientists in caste system.

 

[Riflin'Joe]

Looking at the GSci preference list I'm trying to work out how you can possibly bulb writing?? World builder shenanigans, I suppose.

 

[NihilZero]

AbsoluteZero's crazy skills aside, there's no way normal people like you and I can possibly Lib Steel with any consistency at 700AD on Immortal.

I did a test game on immortal. Saves included for start and 740AD

Spoiler :

Land is average, capital is strong, tech trade opportunities are so-so, but there's marble.

Expanded up to 8 cities which is sub-ideal for showcasing a fast Lib, but will give us a better position to capitalise on it.



Built Parthenon and Great Library and used Stone to milk fail gold. Bulbs were used on Philosophy (switched to Pacifism at this point, never used Caste), Paper and Education. I'm at 740AD and I just teched Compass (to unlock Lib bulb) and got a Great Scientist so Lib is open right now for a Nationalism -> Janissary draft (Gunpowder is researched already). Alternatively, Steel from Lib is probably possible too. As a bonus, Oxford university is ready to go with stone on tap.

There will be another Great Scientist along in a few turns if bulbing chemistry appeals.



Techs:

 

[AbsoluteZero]

AbsoluteZero's crazy skills aside, there's no way normal people like you and I can possibly Lib Steel with any consistency at 700AD on Immortal.

Not true my man, seriously. You just need to prioritize.

1. I recommend a cottage capitol because you should go the Civil Service route.

2. Forget about oxford. Takes too long to get and by that time you should already be to lib. Oxford is for after lib ( unless you have a killer start ).

3. Forget about going for aesthetics -> lit and all the wonders except oracle. It's just a distraction and won't really help you much. Build a wonder or two if you can get away with it or for the fail gold but don't beeline lit to build TGlib. Trade for that stuff instead.

4. Don't sacrifice research for expansion. Use maybe 1 city for expansion and let the rest tech. Early research is key, make sure you establish an early lead and keep it.

5. Don't be obsessed with bulbing stuff like chemistry. It's probably just better to get a GM for gold. Then you can research at a deficit or upgrade catapults to cannons.

6. forget about libbing nationalism, you can trade for that if you really want it. The Ai loves to tech it.

 

[NihilZero]

Yeah, but a small empire sucks for actually killing people once you tech what you want. A balance must be reached. I'll gladly take cannon a few centuries later if it means I can build twice as many of them.

It's like that game that came up once on the forum to see how early Lib could be done on Deity. I tried it and got Lib in 20BC, but it's not like it would have been any use to do so in practical terms (I found the thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=370002&highlight=liberalism).

 

[DanielTorrence]

1 Bulb Philo
1 Bulb Edu
1 Bulb Lib

self tech gunpowder

Bulbing chem is tricky because you can't open up the bulb to lib path before you bulb chemistry. In the attempt I just did I forgot this and could only bulb PP.

Trade for Machinery and Engineering if you can.
....

Thanks, AZ, I will try this path and your hints for cottaging the capital etc. I thought TGL would give me more GS but it seems the distraction out weights the advantages.
Btw, really enjoying your videos and commentary a lot. Especially the idea of leveling a warrior or archer up to get HE is great - although I never find barbs when I need them and I am in a position do defeat I am learning a lot, since you share your considerations with your audience and its great that the vids are in 720p.

@NihilZero

The test game looks promising, I will definitely give it a try and report. You are probably right, if cannons come in the game enough, even longbows might do the clean-up So it seems it comes to an either/or:

either have strong siege that survives and use what you have (muskets, longbows, maces) for the fight

or use your gunpowder UU and just take (more) trebs but do it early enough...

 

[NihilZero]

if cannons come in the game enough, even longbows might do the clean-up So it seems it comes to an either/or:

either have strong siege that survives and use what you have (muskets, longbows, maces) for the fight

or use your gunpowder UU and just take (more) trebs but do it early enough...

I think so. Janissaries are solid against everything pre-gunpowder, so to really get the best from them you want to get them out early. Whether this is actually superior to waiting for a conventional cannon war is open to debate. But it's fun to try something different. I've had good results with pre 1000ad draft Janissaries before, and there's nothing to say that you can't add cannon later (with research fueled by conquest cash, perhaps).

Lib Steel is usually a very nice play whenever it's available, however. Even if you aren't planning war, that's a big ticket tech that retains value for a long time.

One drawback of the save I posted above - no Drama yet. That puts a bit of a downer on draft prospects as the Globe is a long way off. Usually Drama would be available before now. Without it, the Steel slingshot starts to look more appealing (although I don't think Notre Dame is built yet so trading for Engineering could be an issue).

 

[huerfanista]

Using Sulieman (because of PHI trait), you can bulb along the bottom line techs pretty easily with Great Scientists.
- you must avoid fishing (blocks compass line), meditation (blocks Philosophy), civil service (blocks paper/edu).
- you must research/trade alpha, math, and aesthetics.

At that point a GS will bulb MC, machinery, engineering (if you have construction), gunpowder (once you have guilds), chemistry. I've done it quite successfully at emperor. Prereqs for guilds are easily traded for, and you can easily get alpha in trade for aesthetics (math, too, if you get one of the AIs who is willing to trade it early). You can block engineering by avoiding construction, but early jans + trebs are very strong.

 

[NihilZero]

Using Sulieman (because of PHI trait), you can bulb along the bottom line techs pretty easily with Great Scientists.
- you must avoid fishing (blocks compass line), meditation (blocks Philosophy), civil service (blocks paper/edu).
- you must research/trade alpha, math, and aesthetics.

At that point a GS will bulb MC, machinery, engineering (if you have construction), gunpowder (once you have guilds), chemistry. I've done it quite successfully at emperor. Prereqs for guilds are easily traded for, and you can easily get alpha in trade for aesthetics (math, too, if you get one of the AIs who is willing to trade it early). You can block engineering by avoiding construction, but early jans + trebs are very strong.

Very interesting. What sort of dates would you expect to field Janissaries by?

 

[vranasm]

Yeah, but a small empire sucks for actually killing people once you tech what you want. A balance must be reached. I'll gladly take cannon a few centuries later if it means I can build twice as many of them.

It's like that game that came up once on the forum to see how early Lib could be done on Deity. I tried it and got Lib in 20BC, but it's not like it would have been any use to do so in practical terms (I found the thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=370002&highlight=liberalism).

I am on the same boat as you with it, going even with 6 cities for ren. breakout seems to me like too low, but a lot of people advocates such approach.

There has to be something that needs to click. i think I somewhere saw Obsolete's games where he makes breakouts with like 3-4 cities only relying heavily on wonders.

And of course AZ has a lot of videos of 4 cities break outs, but around 500BC.

 

[DanielTorrence]

Not true my man, seriously. You just need to prioritize.

1. I recommend a cottage capitol because you should go the Civil Service route.

...

6. forget about libbing nationalism, you can trade for that if you really want it. The Ai loves to tech it.

Depending on the start I think 800 A.D. is a realistic date to lib steel on immortal. I tried an Emperor game (wussying, but it was more a proof of concept ) and I libbed Steel 1070 A.D., problem was on Emperor none of the AIs traded engineering early enough, so I had to research that and I forgot the GS to bulb PP to be able to bulb chemistry (farmed a GM instead), so teching these two delayed the lib date a bit. Still, no marble, only the oracle for CoL/early cast and a cottage/academy buro capital gave me like 300 beakers, amazing.

Conclusions:

1. Its probably better to selftech chemistry after bulbing lib instead of wasting another GS for PP as a prerequisit
2. The teching speed of the AI determines your own lib/steel-date quite a bit. Selfteching is slower, but might be necessary below Immortal
3. The ability to farm GMs is heavy - two for 100% research and upgrade of the catapults rules.
4. Cast and pacifism can really bring you the tech lead if you focus (and give Shaka and Sury something else to do while you are teching )

Unfortunatly my notebook is too slow for the BAT-mod, so I could not finish the test game. Will give NZs save a try.

BTW, AZs save with the three cities guarded by mech infantry is priceless

 

[NihilZero]

I am on the same boat as you with it, going even with 6 cities for ren. breakout seems to me like too low, but a lot of people advocates such approach.

There has to be something that needs to click. i think I somewhere saw Obsolete's games where he makes breakouts with like 3-4 cities only relying heavily on wonders.

And of course AZ has a lot of videos of 4 cities break outs, but around 500BC.

Six cities is a pretty good balance between big and small and most importantly gives you enough cities for the Globe. The draft is the great equaliser that allows small empires to topple big ones.

 

[vranasm]

just for study reasons I rolled this Immortal Suleiman map to 50AD.

have only 2 neighbors :-( and what is worse no one teched Alphabet yet!

I got CS and it's after Bureau anarchy switch. Have spared 2 GS's for bulbs.
I wonder what would be best to do to get Janis+cannons from this point.

Khmer has Alpha in 3T, I have another GS on the way in 9.

Cities are small due to no resources :-(

motivation screen

Spoiler :

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

On IMM it is relatively easy to Lib Steel at around 500 AD. You just need to have rushed an AI so you can have around 10-12 cities by 1 AD. On Deity though as Chris has said a small empire is better.