Japan strategy?

For once I agree with @Victoria. Japan's +5 coastal combat is easily underestimated. It's easy to use successfully early in the game when scouting and clearing barbarians. Also, it does strengthen Japan's navy quite a bit. The thing that keeps it back is coastal cities still aren't as important or prolific as interior cities, and naval combat is thus fairly unimportant in this game.

But, that's not Hojo's main ability: For some reason folks often overlook that he gets a massive discount on Encampments (YES); Theatres (Good in late game, or if you're going culture up front); and Holy Sites (bleggk). Because Domination is the easiest victory in the game, Japan lends itself to this victory type incredibly well.

Meji Restoration is great if you live in Magical Christmas Land, but it reality it's usually fairly impractical. Getting your cities settled in such a way so as your terrain, housing/water and districts line up perfectly is a near impossibility. You're most likely to get some small bonuses out of your early districts being adjacent to your city center, and that's pretty good on its own. Yes, Japan can somewhat successfully settle crappy areas, but those areas still need production to get districts built. And coastal tiles are still near useless. Even Japan is way better off founding a good city far away.

Samurai can be insanely powerful up front if you rush to them. They are very strong. I've had them easily oneshot cities. The Bushido bonus is largely non-important, though, and it won't carry over when the unit is (somewhat quickly) outclassed. @ShakaKhan properly pointed out the unit's pitfalls. But, hey, no iron is good.

The Electronics Factory is amazing, and you should beeline for the appropriate techs. Used to be better until the Factory bonus nerf. :(

Japan under Hojo is a somewhat versatile Civ (I don't think that's helpful, personally, but that's the way most in game Civs were done in this game), but tends toward Domination, IMHO. It gets combat bonuses, production bonuses, a powerful (if short lived) mid-game unit, and can get out Encampments quickly.
 
It's funny how when you and I make the exact same argument, it should be taken as valuable insight when you say it, but something to be dismissed when I said it (first.)
This is not my fault, do not attack me for this

What may be my fault is I have been convinced by the likes of you in another thread that what I said was wrong and not said well thought of... but I do in fact say that in threads. I even said in a thread today, nice one I had not thought of that. .. I rarely see people say that. I do not espouse to being an expert of even an excellent player, I have said as much plenty of times but I do praise and appreciate. Sometime we get the wrong person and maybe that's what hurts you but it was not me and I am sure it was not intentional.

Are you saying I cannot be convinced by others? What's the point of this forum if it's not for this one very important reason I am here.

On Japan, it's a great bonus at sea. Sure they do not start on a coast but trust me as a naval player I rarely rush frigates but normally take them after I have taken my first wave of cities andvwill very often as Japan ensure they have a strong navy...I play continents. We can differ on this view... you called the ability garbage so I have a right to call your view garbage. It's more about language.

I have no idea what's really getting you upset but I'll apologise if it helps. You have never done anything to offend me and I mean no offence.
 
Shore landings can be a serious pain so the +5 is welcome there, same for actual fights at sea (one day it might matter more). It's nowhere near as good as say the bonus redcoats get from being overseas and some of Japan's other bonuses are better on average but "garbage" is a reach for sure.
 
Sure they do not start on a coast but trust me as a naval player...
This is where it becomes so situational that I labeled it as garbage, which may have been an underestimate but, even when trying to be as objective as possible, would still be a minor underestimation. Most of us are not naval players. In a game where water tile yields are almost useless without resources, and just OK with resources (a coastal tile with a fish is usually still less valuable than a plains/hill tile with no resource, unless you burn your one and only pantheon on it), many of us prefer to play on maps that have more land and less water, and we prefer to settle our cities to have more land and less water. I am finding that navies are a better way to take coastal cities than a land attack, or better yet having a two-pronged attack at them, and Japan gets a significant bonus to this. But this depends on three things: First, that you have access to coastal tiles which, as Japan, is a flip of the coin. Second, that you chose to use your cogs for navy instead of land military, which is usually more versatile. And third, that the opposition decides to settle on the coast. Two out of the three parameters are things you have no control over, and the third involves making a decision to invest in something that, with Japan's bonus, is stronger but less applicable than land units. @FiltyRobot usually evaluates advantages on how strong they are and how frequently they come into use, and I think the coastal combat bonus for ships is moderately impactful but highly if not extremely situational. And we agree that the land unit bonus is moderately impactful but so situational that it can be disregarded; a human opponent will simply walk away from the coast. An AI would need to be lured there which may negate other advantages, such as terrain bonuses and proper setup for focus-firing.

As for getting personal, I'm not looking for an apology nor do I feel you owe me one. But this has happened before, where when we disagree on a point, you interpret your evaluation of my points as just that, a countering evaluation and critique, yet when I counter your counterpoints in the same manner that it's personal and apologies are necessary and that I need to "chill." Use the rule of reciprocity, the golden rule, "do unto others..." Try to objectively treat my critique of your points in the same manner as you treat your critique of my points. In this response and the previous, I am not upset or feel I am owed an apology. I may have been a little displeased with your use of "garbage," which I concede was reflecting on what I myself said, but I said that a game element was garbage, which reflects on the game designers decisions, and they ought to have tough skin regarding criticism seeing as how they're making a fortune at it. As such, calling a forum members evaluation garbage is more personal than calling a game element garbage.

Back to the coastal advantage, it's similar but not as strong as the English coastal bonus from civ5. But there's the same counter: in civ5 when you saw England (or early on Carthage) on the coast, you just said, "well, I guess I won't be settling on the coast. The same nullifying response can work against Japan's water bonus.
 
Ok I will keep your points in mind. I still disagree they are garbage and get tired of emotive language from people trying to be logical. Sadly that's life in an online forum but that does not mean I will conform. If you look back at those posts, it's the emotive that get me.

If I take filthy robots view, I use navies 80% of the time and so to me the benefit is huge.

This is why I say we should agree to differ. Often there is no right or wrong, just shades of grey.
 
I just looked up and Japan has no start Bias in the below list... I would have liked them to be coastal.... such a shame

<!-- Start Bias Lower is First -->

StartBiasResources
SCYTHIA RESOURCE_HORSES" Tier=2

StartBiasFeatures
BRAZIL" FeatureType="FEATURE_JUNGLE" Tier="2"
EGYPT" FeatureType="FEATURE_FLOODPLAINS" Tier="2"
KONGO" FeatureType="FEATURE_JUNGLE" Tier="2"
KONGO" FeatureType="FEATURE_FOREST" Tier="2"
NORWAY" FeatureType="FEATURE_FOREST" Tier="5"

StartBiasTerrains
ENGLAND" "TERRAIN_COAST" Tier="3"
GREECE" "TERRAIN_DESERT_HILLS" Tier="3"
GREECE" "TERRAIN_GRASS_HILLS" Tier="3"
GREECE" "TERRAIN_PLAINS_HILLS" Tier="3"
GREECE" "TERRAIN_TUNDRA_HILLS" Tier="3"
NORWAY" "TERRAIN_COAST" Tier="3"
RUSSIA" "TERRAIN_TUNDRA" Tier="3"
RUSSIA" "TERRAIN_TUNDRA_HILLS" Tier="3"
SCYTHIA" "TERRAIN_GRASS" Tier="5"
SCYTHIA" "TERRAIN_PLAINS" Tier="5"
SPAIN" "TERRAIN_COAST" Tier="3"
LISBON" "TERRAIN_COAST" Tier="1"
NAN_MADOL" "TERRAIN_COAST" Tier="1"
StartBiasRivers
EGYPT" Tier="5"
FRANCE" Tier="3"
SUMERIA" Tier="3"
I frequently change these around based on civ selection and the type of game I want to play. I permanently added a coastal bias for Japan, I have noticed the AI being more successful with them when they get that coastal start. You can add or remove any type of bias you want, you can even add in bias for being close to a particular luxury. I like changing them because I get tired of Greece, Kongo and Brazil getting the best starting locations in most games.
 
Playing a Japan game now; in the atomic era, I think. I was really disappointed with the Samurai, about the same strength as a knight and available at the same time; only relevant for a very short time but at least they have a good upgrade path. I guess they are good for defense if you cant find any iron.

I survived the early war with Sumeria, and I should have wiped him out instead of accepting a peace deal after killing all his war carts. I declared war again later to play with a siege tower and a ram, and almost finished him off; I don't even know where his pitiful little capitol is now, I hope it's in ice somewhere. America was also on my continent, and Teddy declared war on me when he got rough riders. I lost some good units to them and his field cannons in the first couple of battles but I killed those and that was all he had. I refused all his peace offers and wiped him out completely. Everybody hates me, but the feeling is mutual ;)

I've been spamming theaters and holy sites, with a few campuses, encampments, harbors, commercial districts and well-placed electronics factories. Kongo is the runaway culture leader and I'm second. Now I'm spamming inquisitors to clean-up my continent and drive out all the Norwegian missionaries. Do neighborhoods and aqueducts count as districts for the adjacency bonus? (probably not) Still not sure what victory I'm going for, but probably military at this point. I have oil, coal, aluminum, and uranium. I should sell my iron...
 
Meiji restoration is particularly powerful with harbor adjacency. Even with a single coastal resource a japanese harbor next to a city gives +4, and with the policy card that's +8 production and gold an era before factories. Every district you can fit around that harbor adds another base +1, so you are able to easily get a 10+ production/gold building (and a trade route) and get decent cities even in marginal coastal locations.
 
Never considered it, nice! Well that means that every harbour commercial river mouth triangle works something like the following without any sea resources

+4 gold from the harbour
+6 gold from the commercial district

With 2 sea resources and the dual harbour/commercial adjacency card that's

+12 gold and 12 production from the harbour
+12 gold from the commercial

Pretty fine, close to an RNDY off continent +14
 
I finished the game last night (science victory; I might "just one more turn" tonight and kill everybody.) Harbor was the second district I built in every coastal city (after a holy site), although I didn't have all that many coastal cities. It was a pretty big part of my GPT.
 
Japan doesn't have coast start probably because they are meant to be played isolated, unlike Spain (even though Madrid is landlocked in RL). Coastal starts can be good for exploration and international trade routes. Japan should concentrate on conquering it's landmass and maintaining defense of it. On pangea of course most of this is meaningless.
 
Japan should concentrate on conquering it's landmass and maintaining defense of it.
This is a game and we enjoy it in different ways. A lot of people like to play peaceful of with variety. Not everyone wants to go for steamroller victory... it just gets boring. Pangea Dom is about being able to win faster without having to traverse water....less variety, more of the same.
I'll take civs around me and find some coast. Play to Japans strengths, I always play continents. .. and after all that's what this thread is about. Discussing Japan's strengths. Not just for one VC but for all VC, all difficulty levels.
 
Pretty fine, close to an RNDY off continent +14
Clarification needed: does the Royal Navy Dockyard's bonus gold for being off continent count as an "adjacency" bonus and thus get doubled with the cards? Kind of weird if it does as it isn't technically adjacent to anything...
 
Oh, and another thing that works exceptionally well with Japan, although it's map-luck based and consequently doesn't factor into every Japan game: Carthage. With Carthage's suzerein bonus as Japan, you build an encampment first in every city. This district then provides better defense for your cities, gives your units more promotions, has buildings that add extra production and housing, plus gives you an extra trade route, all in a district that's half-priced. Whether your going for an aggressive victory or taking a passive route, Japan plus Carthage suzerein equals lots and lots of power.
 
I think Japan needs a touge course building in the entertainment complex unlocked at combustion to be more competitive :mischief:
 
Clarification needed: does the Royal Navy Dockyard's bonus gold for being off continent count as an "adjacency" bonus and thus get doubled with the cards? Kind of weird if it does as it isn't technically adjacent to anything...
Indeed it does... and yes but they probably thought it was simpler and cleaner to put the value there
 
This is a game and we enjoy it in different ways. A lot of people like to play peaceful of with variety. Not everyone wants to go for steamroller victory... it just gets boring. Pangea Dom is about being able to win faster without having to traverse water....less variety, more of the same.
I'll take civs around me and find some coast. Play to Japans strengths, I always play continents. .. and after all that's what this thread is about. Discussing Japan's strengths. Not just for one VC but for all VC, all difficulty levels.
That is Japan's strength. If they own their entire landmass anyone trying to invade a la Kublai Khan will run into difficulty making a landing and then they can pursue any victory they wish and even forego domination. Pangea Dom is boring yes. If you're Japan and away from the coast on that map type you might as well go for domination most of the time.
 
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