Jet Fighters killing naval units in 1 attack.

Looking at Victoria's posts I'm wondering if my assumptions on naval AA are wrong and I just see that support bonus kick in when putting two ships with AA next to eachother. Problem is that I based those assumptions on the AI attacking me in game where I can't see the odds, just the outcome.
 
What is odd is the bomber is -17 and the fighter is not
Bombers have the AiType "UNITTYPE_AIR_SIEGE" and use Bombard strength. Whereas, Fighters don't have that AiType and use Ranged strength. This is comparable to land units with and without "UNITTYPE_SIEGE" (i.e. Siege units vs. Ranged units.) Siege is good for city attacks with a malus towards units and Ranged is good for unit attacks with a malus towards cities.
 
I can't see the odds, just the outcome.
When you hover in such situations there is a black box to the left side that splits out the AA combat first and in the main screen you see the impact of the estimated outcome as -x for AA.
Pedantically the odds are likely to be more medium as 2 rolls are involved.

If you are trying to work out what happens if those 2 fighters attack your battleship fleet with destroyer support your head can hurt a bit trying to work it out, suffice to say keep away from fighters and fighters are a great defence.
 
One is good for city attacks and the other for unit attacks.
Yes but bombers do not get -17 vs naval and they should because they were rubbish at it.
The oddity meant was via logic not ruleset.

WRT OP starter... my jefighter (110) vs his battleship (70) is +40... +35 is one shot 50/50 territory.. +40 is guaranteed one shot.
Fighters used to have a weaker defensive strength... I pointed out in one thread this oddity showed when attacking fighters in airbases as there was poor consistency. Now attack and defence are the same like they are hiding the crap code. So now fighters have bodies made of steel.
 
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Thank you @Victoria for looking into this! I don't mind really if I need to start bringing Aircraft Carriers with fighters ... I've like never needed to do that since playing Civilization 5, but I've always sort of felt disappointed.

Oh I should mention my Nuclear Submarine also has a Great Admiral next to it ... do you know if that makes a difference? And also mine is a Level 3.

I'm going to buy an Aircraft Carrier Armada and give it some fighters, if I have those on intercept do you know what kind of radius they protect?
 
Yes but bombers do not get -17 vs naval and they should because they were rubbish at it.
Yes, because only Ranged units receive that malus vs naval units not Siege. However, it would be fairly simple to mod that malus in.
 
Oh I should mention my Nuclear Submarine also has a Great Admiral next to it ... do you know if that makes a difference? And also mine is a Level 3.
Yes, +5 as one would expect, no raider promotions help AA. no more stacking just like with GG. I wonder if a GG helps an embarked musket.
I'm going to buy an Aircraft Carrier Armada and give it some fighters, if I have those on intercept do you know what kind of radius they protect?
I have not checked but I believe there is still issues with carrier patrols. It does not affect the patrol though. Basically a patrol anywhere means the fighter will defend with an AA style defence against any unit the goes into its 7 patrol tiles, in essence just acting like another AA unit including getting +5 support from each AA adjacent to the target tile. 7 fighters on patrol would AA defend the central tile as a 130 AA unit and naturally you could have AA ships on those tiles also.
Carriers are vulnerable to air attacks which is why an Amanda may be more useful than single but they weirdly cannot stack as many aircraft as 3 singles, or at least used to not be able to.
A carrier is strength 65(!) so an Amanda is 82, getting very close to being one shotted by a jet fighter.

If you look up patrols and interception in the civlopaedia it in fact explains the mechanic!
 
But if your aircraft carrier has fighters on it on patrol, won't your fighters defend it?

As frustrated as I am by my failed pathetic invasion (lol!) I'm sort of glad I'll need to start employing proper strategies instead of just sending 3 ships and expecting to conquer like I used to.
 
But if your aircraft carrier has fighters on it on patrol, won't your fighters defend it?

As frustrated as I am by my failed pathetic invasion (lol!) I'm sort of glad I'll need to start employing proper strategies instead of just sending 3 ships and expecting to conquer like I used to.

Like Victoria said there is or at least used to be an issue with patroling from a carrier. You also can't put fighters on patrol in enemy territory so that greatly reduces the usefulness.
 
instead of just sending 3 ships and expecting to conquer like I used to.
Yes, much better.
Yes fighters on patrol on a carrier will defend it as long as their patrol 7 tiles includes the carrier.
You also can't put fighters on patrol in enemy territory so that greatly reduces the usefulness.
Patrolling adjacent to an enemy airfield would be a bit rough.

Are we aware that planes cannot see over hills unless flying on hills at the time :cry:

The whole game is littered with the ludicrous
 
I understand the idea behind boosting air units ~+20 because they made them much more expensive (aluminum costs) and halved airport capacity.
And I like that they boosted AA/SAM to 90/100. But then they seem to have forgotten that they made naval units also cost resources and they didn't touch their AA strength at all (despite, in an early patch, boosting most ship AA!)

It feels like an oversight.

You can spam SAMs but your missile cruisers are helpless?
Just what exactly do people think is on those ships? Pea shooters?

Depends on the size of the hole relative to the waterline of the 'boat', and where the hole is. IF the 'jet fighter' (more likely, Attack aircraft) is carrying torpedos, the hole is likely to be large and exactly where it has to be to do the most damage. On the other hand, bombs from above not guided or dropped precisely tend to merely damage the vessel, if that.

The record in the Falklands War (which was, admittedly, a generation or so ago in missile/ship defense technology) was that a single aircraft-launched missile (the French EXOCET) could sink or at least put completely out of action a medium-sized warship. ... but assuming equivalent technologies on both sides, the aircraft's attack shouldn't more than a 50% certainty by any means.
Boris you might be more familiar, but I have to imagine that something like a Ticonderoga missile cruiser (the basis of all civ missile cruisers for the past 15 years) is going to have comparable AA to a handful of mobile SAM trucks. I mean these ships are over 500ft long.

This is, I think, another argument for 'specialized' Promotions for Fighter/Bomber aircraft: say, one that increases factors against naval vessels (Torpedoes, applicable to all aircraft, including Biplanes), one that increases factors against ground units (Dive Bombing, air-to-ground rockets), one that increases factors against Antiaircraft units ("Wild Weasels" - only for jet fighters or jet bombers). But on the other side, promotions for warships that increase their capabilities: Helicopter pads (for Destroyers, Battleships, Missile Cruisers) that increase Vision radius; Gun Directing Radar that increases factors against all targets, including aircraft; Point Defense Automation (for Aircraft Carriers, Missile Cruisers) that increase factors against Aircraft or Helicopters, and so on.
The mechanism of Tech Promotions Firaxis used on the GDR is wasted on an End Game Unit rarely seen before the game is over: we need to add that to other units in the game from the Ancient Era (Heavy Shields, Metal Body Armor, Saddles) onward.

This probably speaks to how little air units get used and thus promoted- but bombers have a pair of tier 2 promotions: Close Air Support and Torpedo Bomber which grants +12 and +17 to land and naval units respectively. Fighters have strafe and tank buster, which is +17 to non mounted units* and mounted units. *The text is poorly descriptive, I think this only means land units.
Yes, CAS should probably be something fighters have instead of bombers, but what can you do when you have no representation of the modern fighter/bomber jet anyways.
 
But then they seem to have forgotten that they made naval units also cost resources and they didn't touch their AA strength at all (despite, in an early patch, boosting most ship AA!)

I was unaware that AA even got support bonusses until today but that might explain why a single cruiser armada is rather weak vs airplanes because if it could stand toe to toe with one on its own it might be too tough when it gets support bonusses. And you're much more likely to have several of those and on water it's easy to keep them in close formation.
 
but that might explain why a single cruiser armada is rather weak vs airplanes because if it could stand toe to toe with one on its own it might be too tough when it gets support bonusses
This hinges on whether the devs felt that air unit strength improvements were to make them more useful globally or just vs land units. Because as it stands, the destroyer - the last melee ship available- has a pitiful 70 AA strength. That won't do anything to a fighter or jet fighter- as Victoria notes, 30 to 40 str disparity means maybe a couple points of damage. It would be like attacking knights with scouts. It won't do a whole lot to even regular bombers either. Debate the merits of that separately- it is touted as being able to intercept aircraft in the game. At the very least, this is a "noob trap." (It almost seems like missile cruisers are intended to take of a hybrid role of Battleship/Destroyer, except it can't see subs like a destroyer.)

Since a destroyer is pretty much moral support against every aircraft in the game, I just don't see why it should be touted as anti air. Even the missile cruiser is only as tough as an AA gun (what?!,) and cruisers use up precious oil.
 
It's funny but back on release of civ VI aerodromes were considered a waste of cogs. Now it's the consensus that bombers are the best way to quickly end a dom game. It's like they overcompensated in one direction and while doing so nerfed the heck out of navies. Something that never needed a nerf in the first place.
 
Thank you, @Victoria for your explanations/analysis: I knew the air-naval-ground-AA system was broken, but never realized how badly and in precisely what numbers (like I said, I don't play much Late Game: I think I've built all of 2 air units in 2000 hours of playing!)

Looking at the Naval Promotions reveals another set of anomalies, unless they've changed in GS. The Naval Melee has a "Reinforced Hull" Promotion giving a +10 defending against Ranged Attacks. By my reading of the Posts above, that should include defense against Fighter aircraft attacks, but still gives the Destroyer a measly 80 versus the basic Fighter's 100 - enough to avoid being One-Shotted, but not what you'd call impressive. Naval Ranged has the "Proximity Fuse" Promotion giving +7 against all air attacks, which is, frankly, even more mediocre than reinforcing the Hull. Naval Raiders (Submarines) are as they say in Boston, Scrod, because they have no Promotions giving any additional air defense.

@Sostratus and others. . .
I think part of the problem is that Civ 'lumps' everything that has happened in military technology for the past 70+ years into a single 'level': after WWII Battleships, Destroyers, Aircraft Carriers, Fighters and Bombers you get a few Promotions and one incomplete set/level of new units: Jet Fighters, Jet Bombers, Missile Cruisers. This is a gross simplification of what has been happening. Just to take Naval Missiles, there have been two generations of Cruise Missiles, three generations of Antiaircraft missiles, a whole new category of Point Defense systems, and the massive armor plate of WWII-Era Battleships and Heavy Cruisers has been replaced by electronic jamming, 'spoofing' and 'stealth' techniques. In a nutshell, in 1945 Defense consisted of being able to survive most hits. Since then, Defense consists of not being spotted or hit at all.
The result is that 'modern combat' (Atomic-Information Era) in Civ is a hodgepodge of mis-matched Units: Jet Fighters that represent capabilities ranging from the F-86 of 1951 to the A-10 of 1990 to the F-35 of 2018 (or their MiG, Su and Euro equivalents) ALL IN ONE UNIT. Frankly, that's like representing Alexander's Hetairoi, medieval Knights and WWII Tanks all in one Unit: it doesn't work, and 'works' (is allowed) in the game only because, apparently, neither the designers nor the players realize what a Crock it is.

Now, I don't think an entire new set of late-game Units is the answer. For one thing, there isn't time to develop and build and use most of them by then, so the return on graphic/design investment is, frankly, marginal.
That's why my argument is for a set of Technical Upgrades similar to the GDR's.

So, at, say. Tech: Rocketry you could Upgrade Fighters (and later, Jet Fighters) with Air to Ground Rockets increasing their factors against ground and naval units. AND you could Upgrade Destroyers, Aircraft Carriers, and Battleships with Antiaircraft Missile Installations giving them an increase in factors against ALL air units.
At Tech: Guidance Systems you could Upgrade those Antiaircraft Missile Installations to Homing Ground-to-Air Missile Installations with even more AA defense against All aircraft, while Jet Fighters could be Upgraded with Fire and Forget Air-to-Air Missiles for more effect against other aircraft, and so on.

This would allow far more differentiation than the linear Promotion System and speed up the differentiation/specialization more than a new set of Units with resource and Production requirements.
Just my thoughts.
 
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single cruiser armada
Another interesting fact...
a missile cruiser has an AA of 90.
A missile cruiser fleet has an AA of 100
A missile cruiser Amanda has an AA of 107
If you attacked an Armada with a jet fighter you would be at +3 so give 32 and take 25 damage
If you attacked a fleet with 1 supporting cruiser they would first get an AA attack on you at -5 (26 damage) and you would then fight the fleet at +7 so would do roughly 35 and take 50 damage
:crazyeye:
Even the missile cruiser is only as tough as an AA gun
It is like they listened to some forum whiners who had not upgraded their aircraft with those hefty bonuses that specialise a fighter to be a fighter bomber or an interceptor which worked well and just made the fighter OP against all with a super OP promotion on top.
They in fact ruined one of the good designs with patching, not for the first time.
 
I mean... it may not be entirely unintentional.

England vs the Luftwaffa in 1940: “Aircraft are waaayy to strong. This needs a patch now. Fighters are OP against our boats.”
 
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I mean... it may not be entirely unintentional.

England vs the Luftwaffa in 1940: “Aircraft are waaayy to strong. This needs a patch now. Fighters are OP against our boats.”

In order to keep the number of Units to a minimum, Civ VI lumps all single-engined aircraft together as 'Fighters", and all multi-engined aircraft together as "bombers" - as did Civ V
Thus, the Fighter category includes dive bombers like the Ju-87 Stuka or the Japanese Nakajima and US Navy's Dauntless, and attack aircraft like the Il-2 and IL-10 Shturmoviks, and torpedo-carrying aircraft like the US Navy's TBDs and even biplane torpedo aircraft like the British navy's Swordfish. That means, again as said earlier, that they are lumping together aircraft with wildly differing capabilities.

So, yes, a torpedo or dive bombing 'fighter' is very strong against boats. But such a 'fighter', if attacked by a 'real' Fighter, is like the proverbial Toad in a Tree: no mater which way it jumps, it's going down. For another 1940 example, look at the disastrous (for the Luftwaffe) attempt to use the Ju-87 Stuka over England in an airspace filled with enemy fighters: the term 'massacre' is not too strong for what happened to the dive bombers. And a regular fighter without dive-bombing capability, had a very tiny chance of hitting a ship or boat with any bomb load it carried, and, with a very few exceptions, could strafe, say, a Destroyer until it ran out of ammunition without doing any serious damage to it - assuming the destroyer didn't put a 40mm antiaircraft shell through the cockpit and ruin the pilot's whole day long before it got that far.

So, another argument for Differentiation by Technical Upgrade. Dive Bombing was actually developed Before the Atomic Era (US Marine Aviation, early 1930s), so a Dive Bomber Upgrade might be available at Tech: Radio (appropriate, because the first dive bombers were Biplanes) which would give, say, a +10 against ground or naval units, BUT it would also give a - 20 versus other aircraft. IF the game were done right, you'd also get a new 'skin' for your 'fighter' aircraft of a specific Dive Bomber the so you'd not forget and send the poor devll to 'intercept' a 'real' enemy fighter!
 
England vs the Luftwaffa in 1940: “Aircraft are waaayy to strong. This needs a patch now. Fighters are OP against our boats.”

But England won the air war. Think Germany was complaining about islands being too hard to attack. Damn lucky spawns.
 
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