JOE-03 - Xenophobia Returns

[Talamane]

OK, son. Let slip the dogs of war. We need alphabet to extort techs from Mao. We have a good bit of jungle to the north (and undoubtedly in Mao's northern territory as well), we will eventually need iron working to build plantations on tiles which have jungle or chop. Hopefully, we can extort IW from Mao.

The tech path you outlined looks good. The messages of this and that getting built IAFAL indicates that we are very far behind in tech. No doubt, someone will visit us in about 6-7 centuries in a caravel. I have grave concerns that we will not get a religion. Mao has not been able to snag a religion so far and this is bad. Importing one is forbidden by the variant rules. We are, after all, xenophobic.

Being in isolation with a single civ that we cannot have OB (essentially no trade) with plays right in the AI's general strategy to defeat the human player. This goes back to Civ3. The neighbor would be considered by the game AI to be "sacrificial", and the human player would spend a good deal of coin in war with it. In Civ3, you could always tech whore your way back up once contact had been made with the other civs, but in Civ4, this is not possible. Only a partial recovery is doable. If we end up being very large, we can out-tech, but the better option is to kill them as quickly as possible.

The man is going to bed.

 

[armstrong]

Okay, here we go. I just got kind of busy just now, so no pictures (maybe some later), and the story of Armstrong III the Younger ends abrubtly (like, whatever.) The executive summary:

0) Sheesh, I didn't know it's raging barbarians. No wonder Before declaring on Mao, we had killed 25 warriors, 7 archers, and 6 axemen, at the cost of two warriors. Nice work!
1) Speaking of which, we declared on Mao and razed Beijing at the cost of 3 axers.
2) We will have a great scientist in 9 turns. Taoism hasn't been founded yet. Once the scientist is born, we need to unhire a scientist at Silk Bend so it can grow. It has a FP cottage waiting to be worked.
3) Monarchy is coming in in 5 turns, but we should probably revolt to HR + Pacifism at the same time. Right now, though, I think we should switch to Alphabet immediately and finish Monarchy later. (I've already done this in the save.) After razing another of Mao's cities we can wait for Alphabet to come in and then extort technologies like iron working, sailing, etc for a (temporary) peace.
4) Lake Placid will build a settler in 5 turns. I recommend sending him to food city (I already started building a wheat farm there for it), chopping an obelisk and work boat, let the city grow to size 2, and build nothing but settlers there for the rest of the game. After that, no more settlers for Lake Placid until it's at happiness cap - just cottages, cottages, cottages unless it has infrastructure to build.

The Turns

"Brass Lions is like, not working it's gold? Whatever."

And thus begins the rule of Armstrong III the Younger. Fortunately, he has an elder advisor to keep things sane. Brass Lions is ordered to stagnate, and work it's gold and plains hill. At some point, we should grow it, but it doesn't have any more good tiles to work.

Silk Bend is ordered to hire two scientists. The citizens are hungry, but no one will starve to death since it's wheat farm will be connected soon.

((None were working there. We needed to hire 'em as soon as we built the library... I think we might miss out on Philosphy now Still, we can use an academy.))

JKaen the Brave is going to die. I guess his death will be... symbolic.

"Like, yeah. Like, CSB. Right on." Armstrong III pipes in.

The spearman in Silk Bend is ordered to join the CSB ("Cleanse the Stink Brigade") when that city is secure. Relatedly, an Axer is ordered south from Brass Lions (there are two there) to Silk Bend, in case of barbarians.

((I finally realized we have raging barbarians on! No wonder there's so many! If I had known that, I wouldn't have advocated late archery ))

We devote more resources to science. Code of Laws will now come in in 5 turns instead of 10, thanks to the scientists & gold.

IBT:

Jkaen the Brave dies.

Turn 157, 145 BC

Things are quiet, though there is a population boom in Lake Placid.

Turn 158, 130 BC

The axer who killed Jkaen the Brave approaches his beloved "Cow Road." We can handle it, though.

Turn 159, 115 BC

Armstrong III personally defends Lake Placid.

Meanwhile, the CSB is almost marshalled together, though it needs a couple more axers.

Turn 160, 100 BC

Things are quiet, and, thankfully, surprisingly clean smelling. Lake Placid finishes it's axer and begins work on a settler. We need to keep the settlers going, or we're going to really fall behind. I think we should have 1-2 cities building settlers at all times until our continent is completely ours.

Turn 161, 85 BC

Code of Laws comes in (yay!)

Research is set to... (drumroll) Monarchy. Armstrong III wants to be a king. Angle sends out an axer (grr.) I start building the next cottage on the side away from Angle - we might have trouble with pillaging in Silk Bend as long as that city is up.

Turn 162, 70 BC

Angle uses slavery (those barbarians!) to build a wall into the city. We're not touching that place until we have cats/samurai. Feeling high and mighty, they also send an axer towards Sanctuary.

Turn 163, 55 BC

Sanctuary is assaulted by an axer and an archer, but survives with no casualties.

Turn 164, 40 BC

The warrior in Silk Bend is ordered to take Jkaen's place fog-busting in the south. He is renamed "Comischill"

Turn 165, 25 BC

Angle sends out another squad of axemen! They're enraged!

Turn 166, 10 BC

The CSB is marshalled! Soon, Mao and his communists will stop polluting our precious bodily fluids.

Turn 167, 5 AD



Turn 168, 20 AD

More dead barbarians. The CSB is on the move. Mao asks for open borders. Oh, we'll be opening them soon enough

Turn 170, 50 AD

The worker near Lake Placid begins work on the wheat farm nearby, in anticipation of a new city being founded to use it.

War is declared on Mao!

Two axers are threatening Silk Bend, but we have two axers in the city itself, one a melee fighter.

Mao has a mine, presumably iron and not uranium, but we just can't tell.

Turn 171, 65 AD

Beijing is lightly defended, but there's a CD3 archer in it and it has 40% culture - damn barbs!

Turn 172, 80 AD

Mao's warrior in the northwest is slain by Shigeru.

We assault Beijing. Ouch, we lose a 60% fight, so we end up losing 3 axers, but the city is razed. We have a CR1 axer leaving Sanctuary right now, and another on the way to Sanctuary, so we can keep pressing on (I'd recommend the city to the NW next.) Unless Mao has a hill city, the fights should be easier from here on out. Hiroshi now has 10 experience, so we can promote him to CR2 and theoretically build the Heroic Epic when we get Literature.

Also, I think we should send the archer being built in Silk Bend to sanctuary. Right now, one axer is just not safe enough with raging barbarians, though during my turns there was always one nearby as it's where I sent our axemen on the way to Mao. Silk Bend is on a hill, so nothing will dislodge that axer there until barbarian Macemen come around.

Oops, I realized I played 16 turns... I guess I got excited waiting to raze Beijing. Will we head down to 10 turn turnsets now?

At this point, I like Alphabet->finish Monarchy->Literature->Civil Service is the best tech path. We can take another city or two of Mao's and make peace for all the techs we can get, then reload our axers and finish him off. We need to keep building settlers!

ROSTER:

JesusOnEez - ...
Talamane - ...
Armstrong - ...
Berserks01 - Up!
Cosmichail - On Deck

The save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129604&stc=1&d=1149983184

 

[Cosmichail]

Cosmichail reporting ready on deck SIR

 

[JesusOnEez]

Great turnset taking out Beijing. Although I've missed the majority of the discussion (busy Saturday), I nearly always go with an Axe rush at the beginning of a game and found it to be very effective. Looks to be so far!

So we're razing another 1 or 2 of The Unclean's cities, then extorting for a tech, and settling in the old city spots. Mao shouldn't be giving our new cities much in the way of cultural pressure with his capital gone, although if we get a religion, I'd recommend converting to it immediately and using missionaries on our border towns first.

 

[berserks01]

Got it. Will either play tonite or tomorrow morning.

 

[berserks01]

So, I actually got to play early.

Turn 0 (Pre-flight) - Uhhh, Brass Lions isn't growing working on the gold. Switched to work on trees to grow in 7 turns to reach limit without losing gpts (if this is a bad idea, let me know after my turnset ) Ok, I'm ready to go.

Turn 1 - Healing axes 2 turns before continuing with our ritual cleansing.

Turn 2 - zzzz

Turn 3 - Done healing, moving in for the kill. Shanghai has 1 sword and 2 archers defending, and another archer on a mine (no idea why). Noticed that Angle just built a warrior .... what are we doing about this one?

Turn 4 - Lake Placid finished settler, ordered another settler to go. Settler heading to old Beijing. An axe will be ready in Brass Lion to escort. Damn barbs sent a measly warrior to Sanctuary no worries there. We razed Shanghai without losing any axes.

Turn 5 - Silk Bend finishes archer, ordered another archer. Archer heads to Santuary. We gotta do something about Angle, they're building axes now. Brass Lion finishes axe, ordered up another axe. Axe escorts settler to old Beijing. Axe kills barb warrior near Sanctuary.

Turn 6 - Barb axe heads to Sanctuary. Our army heals up to take Angle.

Turn 7 - Sanctuary's Finest takes out barb axe. Brass Lion grows, switched to work on gold and forest ( we can now make an axe every 4 turns). Mao sends some peons to try and resettled lands. We'd have none of that!!! We get a worker out of the deal, but our spear dies to an archer with 60.2% chance of winning

Turn 8 - Mao sends another axe towards our army. Our army is healing up. Archer gets to Sanctuary, so we can leave it be for now.

Turn 9 - We get a scientist in Silk Bend... what are our plans for him? I'll leave it up to the next player to decide.

Turn 10- Brass Lion finishes axe, starts another axe.

Our settler should reach old Beijing in 3 turns. There's a Mao axe on a hill next to our army, wait til he gets off before taking him out. Our army should heal up and go finish mao since Sanctuary seems stable at the moment. Here's a pix of Angle.

Roster:
JesusOnEez - On deck
Talamane - ...
Armstrong - ...
Berserks01 - Just played
Cosmichail - Up

 

[Cosmichail]

Got it,

Will play tonight sometime.......

EDIT: PS how many turns are we playing 10 or 15. I noticed Armstrong played 15 and Berserk played 10. If I'm not told otherwise I will play 10 just to get used to the game/variants.

 

[armstrong]

@Cosmichail:

We talked about playing 15 turns until first blood with Mao, then down to 10, though we never really finalized that. So I guess 10 from now on.

 

[armstrong]

Some quick comments. Btw, in no way construe things as anything other than suggestions... I tend to write a bit more, erm, forcefully than I probably should All of these points are worthy of discussion.

0. Looks good. Mao is really on the ropes with only 3 cities left. I don't seem him recovering. Great job catching the settler! That's as good as razing another city! Once alphabet comes in, let's settle. I'd really like to get food city with the settler in Lake Placid. Distance costs are going to kill us if we keep only expanding in one direction. Thankfully, we have cheap courthouses.

1. We need to move our axeman stack with Hiroshi. Right now it's not in any defensible terrain, and Mao's axe is combat 2+Shock. It can kill one of our axers, and then then still be on a forested hill where we can't retaliate. We can either move NW into the forest, or run away. Even though they have a 20% fortify bonus, the forest is 50%.

2. I don't think Angle is that big of a threat. As long as we keep a combat 2+Cover and Combat 2+Shock their axes and archers aren't going to be put a dent in Sanctuary. With walls+hill, we'd lose too much trying to take it now I think. Let's just wait until we have cats. We should promote Sanctuary's Finest to medic, though, I think. So what if they keep sending units out against us? It's free exp.

3. We need to unhire the scientists at Silk Bend now so it can grow, and work those flood cottages

4. As for the Great Scientist, we can found Taoism via Philosphy - but, oh no! We need to get Math first. ARGH! Math will currently take (assuming we unassign the scientists) 10 turns. We can either finish Alphabet and hope to extort Math from Mao, or, if that doesn't work, press ahead towards it, hoping no one else grabs Taoism. If we miss it Taoism, I think it's still worth grabbing Philosphy, since it will speed up our next scientist by 100%.

Alternatively, we can keep fighting Mao for 13 turns, and rush ahead to Math. That will give us 3 extra turns to found Taoism, but 10 more turns of war. Either way is a gamble, but the power of a religion + Pacifism + a really, really expensive tech (32 turns to research at our current rate.) is always worth the GS, I think.

Researching Math is not bad at all - we now can see 3 calendar resources, need cats at some point, and currency is never bad. Plus, it gives us better chops.

5. I would not resettle Beijing at it's old spot (it smells!) I'd settle it 1n of the old spot, and then resettle "Shanghai" between the silks and cows on the coast (2W1S of it's old spot.) Resettling Beijing 1n will let it work it's cows right away, and let it have the wheat. New Shanghai will lose the wheat, but gain cows, and still have it's sugar and iron mine.

6. We should whip Sanctuary's library in asap! It's going to take too long to build any infrastructure in that city - we need to just whip it every 15 rounds or so.

7. It probably would have been better to switch Brass Lions off of it's plains hill instead of the gold... 7C is better than 2P. But it was only 7 turns, and we can always use more axers.

 

[Cosmichail]

Turn 1

Sanctuary move wkr to build mine
Barb archer threatening Sanctuary leave axe to greet him

Turn 2

Axe attacked by barb archer, kills archer
2nd wkr at Sanctuary starts mine
Mao axe leaves hill goe to desert
move axes from Old Beijing to China

Turn 3

Discover alphabet - start Monarchy (although lit might be good too)
Silk Bend use GS for Academy, reduced one scientist to work cottage growth in 12 turns can add scientist. Move worker to build mine

Turn 4

Worker in Sanctuary threated by Chinese axe, move axe to intercept as well as barb axe to south
Brass Lion threatened by warrior barb going after gold, move axe to kill him

Turn 5

Sanctuary threatened, defense need attention
Silk Bend worker starts mine
Axe kills barb warrior threatening gold at BrassL
Axe kills Chinese axe close one...
Axe kills barb axe at Sanctuary

Turn 6

Barb axe at Silk Bend threatens worker put axe there... leave SilkB empty
Move axe army towards China
Wkr Lake Placid builds road to connect wheat...

Turn 7
Barb ax attacks Axe at Silk Bend and dies
Discover Monarch start Mathematics..
Axes healing in BL/Sanctuary
Revolt to HR

Turn 8

Silk bend worker goes back to building mine

Turn 9

Settler ready in Lake Placid move to food city?
Axes prepare to attack next Chinese town Nanjing...
Barb archer attacks Kyoto (rename it) and we prevail

Turn 10

Barb archer threatens Sanctuary, lots of axes there
Settler ready to be settled
Loose two axes to raze Nanjing
Mao still has another city in the distance

Just one more city to go I think.... So it's up to the next player have fun....


And here the save:

 

[Cosmichail]

Armstrong,

I wish I had read your comments before I finished...

I did take a scientist off in Silk Bend, had that citizen work a cottage tile (growth in 12 turns which can be used for scientist again) and used GS for Academy which gave it a lot more beakers. The science rate couldn't stay at it's current rate ran out of money now at 60%. I did settle in Old Beijing me thinks so that's too late. The second settler I didn't use since I think we should slow down and get infrastructure going. Philosophy is a long way off and I did start Math after Monarchy. I still think Lit would be for GL in Silk Bend so I started a mine there. Razed Nanjing and I think there is only one city left. I didn't look but if we don't have currency it's worth considering to get the money flowing.

Just my thoughts........

(After a lot of consideration I thought the GS would be better for Academy since those beaker will multiply during the remainder of the game whereas taking tech would only provide short term benefits. I did wait a while to wait for comments but didn't see any so I proceeded as I felt best. I suppose I could have left him but that would be lost beakers.)

 

[armstrong]

Well, I'm just a bit frusterated. The academy in Silk Bend is giving us a grand total of 2 (!) beakers/turn. If nothing else, it would have been much better in Lake Placid or even Sanctuary. I realize Cosmichail that you missed my most recent post, but I had been harping about using the GS to discover Philosphy for at least my last two turnsets, including twice in the last two days!

I responded with comments within four hours the turnset being reported. If you don't wait even that long, how do you expect players in other time zones or with any kind of schedule to be able to contribute to the game?

Philosphy would have given us +2 happiness in all of our cities and sped up our GS production by 100%, allowing us to get more academies faster, not too mention a tech worth 1700 beakers...

Oh well, I'll let my head cool down a bit. Really, though, I'm not going to enjoy this game if I'm the only one trying to discuss long term policy. I keep feeling that I make comments and some folks just plow through their turnset without even reading them, or offering much discussion of their own. I know I'm verbose, and I understand that sometimes people don't have the time to read an awful lot of text, or have a difficult time assimilating everything. I can work on that. I don't care about moves - I make them all the time! - but when I mention what I think is a good plan, and folks choose not to do it (without offering their own plan for discussion) I just get the feeling I'm talking to a wall. That's not fun.

But let's get it together folks! We can't expect to play a turnset every 4 hours and be on the same page. If we don't slow this game down, talk about things, and get our act together, we're beelining for sad showing.

 

[Talamane]

Good job everyone. I learned a lot.

We could hold off on settlers after Mao is gone, concentrate on tech and infra. The barbs will build cities for us. Usually, they pick good spots, but when they dont, we could raze/replace.

 

[Cosmichail]

Armstrong,

When I built the academy it provided 4 more beakers and as the city grows it will multiply exponentially. GS only would give Math at the time but could have been saved for Philo. I did read you harping on that. It will be available after Math is researched and if GL were built in good science city will pop another GS fairly quick to get Philo. Mao is almost finished and a lot of work can be done to get infrastructure going. Personally I would get GL asap and build it in food rich city. Silk Bend will provide lots of commerce/food eventually good spot for GL but stagnating it makes no sense since it should grow. I mean we are in ad and there isn't a city over 5.???
The more population the more science especially if there are cottages.

Since this was on prince level was Oracle built? Was it possible to shoot for a CS slingshot. Think of what maceman (I know you need machinery but wouldn't be too far away) would do against China and the effects of bureaucracy on science and coin. Even GP after all the religious techs (lower ones not DR) (Stonehenge) will give you some beakers towards CS. I personally believe in the power of CS and even the capitol is small yielding little science really. In one of my games I had 30+beakers science at this age (earlier) and other cities close to that. Capitol only has 11??? I realize this is a military campaign but I guarantee you that when you encounter the other civs you will be very backwards. Get the cities growing/ GL / in science/GP city asap and then use GS for Philo.

I did look at your suggested tech path and followed that. As to the GS the amount of beakers you will receive long term will well exceed what tech he had to offer. I was looking long term not short term as once that Silk Bend grows, build plantations, cottage, and some farms it will do very well in science. Perhaps the other city Sanctuary might be a candidate too.

Personally I didn't see the benefit of just leaving him there... and to be honest I read and there didn't seem to be an overall strategy so I did what seemed logical to benefit the long term. If erred apoligies but I don't like to play asking permission for every move. That is tedious and please we are grown ups with independent thought. Games are supposed to be fun so why not play it that way and don't get your knickers in a twist mate. No good for the heart and blood pressure.......

Anyhooooo Armstrong it's just a game man.....

 

[armstrong]

Hey everyone,

Sorry for that pseudo-rant, in particularly you Cosmichail. My apologies. It was never intended to be directed at you; I was temporarily frusterated that it seemed the game was moving so quickly that there wasn't any time for discussion.

Let me reference something in your post:

... and to be honest I read and there didn't seem to be an overall strategy so I did what seemed logical to benefit the long term.

I know, and this is why I feel bad that my rant seemed directed at you. What you said above is exactly correct: there was no overall strategy. Basically, I've been trying really hard to get one established, and, well, there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in it. I recognized we were in a pretty big economical hole early on. I came up with my best plan, and offered it, and their just wasn't much of a reception.

But there's no reason we can't start now!

If erred apoligies but I don't like to play asking permission for every move. That is tedious and please we are grown ups with independent thought.

No apology necessary. I was the one who went over the line - it was simply pent up frusteration about the lack of coherence in our play. You're the last person that should have been foisted on, since it was only your first turnset. I'm the one who owes you (and the rest of the group) an apology.

Please don't read it as I think folks need my "permission" to play - I never intended that at all. It is a team game, however. It's more fun, at least for me, when we work together as a team. There are certain decisions that I think should be (at least partially) discussed by the team. Things like civic changes, general tech research paths, decisions on wars and expansion, etc.

I play to have fun, and I have fun when we can work together, share ideas and strategies, and come up with things that none of us would have thought of on our own.

Games are supposed to be fun so why not play it that way and don't get your knickers in a twist mate. No good for the heart and blood pressure.......

Good words, and trust me, I wasn't nearly as upset at the game as it might have sounded.


To some of your other points:

When I built the academy it provided 4 more beakers and as the city grows it will multiply exponentially. GS only would give Math at the time but could have been saved for Philo. I did read you harping on that. It will be available after Math is researched and if GL were built in good science city will pop another GS fairly quick to get Philo.

Well, it's no longer possible to found Taoism (or at least not worth it, I don't believe.) I think we're just going to be stuck with no religion. It will take at least 10 turns to research Literature, 20 to build the great library with no marble, and 25 for a scientist to spawn. At that point, it will probably be more useful to us the GS for an academy in Lake Placid to go along with Bureaucracy.

Mao is almost finished and a lot of work can be done to get infrastructure going. Personally I would get GL asap and build it in food rich city. Silk Bend will provide lots of commerce/food eventually good spot for GL but stagnating it makes no sense since it should grow. I mean we are in ad and there isn't a city over 5.???
The more population the more science especially if there are cottages.

I agree. Our number one priority should be city & cottage growth.

Also, Silk Bend was never intended to be a GP city, it was simply the only one that could run scientists at the time. I know you weren't around for that part of the game When we started building the library, we only had 3 cities - Lake Placid, which basically had to build settlers/workers, Brass Lions which was on axer detail, and Silk Bend which got scientist duty.

Since this was on prince level was Oracle built? Was it possible to shoot for a CS slingshot. Think of what maceman (I know you need machinery but wouldn't be too far away) would do against China and the effects of bureaucracy on science and coin. Even GP after all the religious techs (lower ones not DR) (Stonehenge) will give you some beakers towards CS. I personally believe in the power of CS and even the capitol is small yielding little science really. In one of my games I had 30+beakers science at this age (earlier) and other cities close to that. Capitol only has 11??? I realize this is a military campaign but I guarantee you that when you encounter the other civs you will be very backwards. Get the cities growing/ GL / in science/GP city asap and then use GS for Philo.

I don't know if we could have done a CS slingshot due to raging barbarians, and the constant threat of having to be ready to declare on Mao, though a Oracle for Code of Laws would certainly have saved us time (and the prophet could be used for CS.) As it was, this was a result of no clear direction in the BC's. I agree 100% with Civil Service... here's what I wrote in response to Talamane's wondering about going for Code of Laws:

The reasoning behind CoL was that it seems our biggest problem is not going to be military (once Mao is gone, we're probably going to be alone for quite some time) but rather our economy - since we're cut out of the tech trading game, we're going to have to research all the techs ourselves. Code of Laws will help both with eventual courthouses (admittedly not a problem now) but more importantly it's a pre-req for both Philosphy and Civil Service. When our great scientist in Silk Bend comes in, he can research Philosphy for us, giving us a religion and much needed happiness, along with a very expensive tech and one of the best builder civics (Pacifism, which will let us then get a quick academy in Lake Placid.)

Civil Service is a key tech, as it will let us run Bureaucracy. With that in place, Lake Placid will become the best research center on the face of the earth. And, it's a prereq for Samurai.

So I think we're on the same page.

As to the GS the amount of beakers you will receive long term will well exceed what tech he had to offer. I was looking long term not short term as once that Silk Bend grows, build plantations, cottage, and some farms it will do very well in science. Perhaps the other city Sanctuary might be a candidate too.

I understand the reasoning - especially in a no tech trade game where we can't get some other expensive techs for it - and you're right, both Silk Bend & Sanctuary will be fine science cities sooner rather than later (Silk Bend's original name in the dot map was "Great Commerce?" ) However, I'm going to have to disagree with the Academy in Silk Bend, as opposed to Lake Placid or saving it for Philosophy. Philosophy would have doubled our rate of generating academies, along with speeding up significantly research on the Education -> Liberalism path.

Long term is not always better than short term. For instance, even if Silk Bend made 40 commerce/turn (which it won't for quite some time) at 100% research, it will take 85 turns for it to make us 1700 beakers. Long term, is it better? Absolutely. Will it help us get Liberalism first? Not as much as taking Philosophy would have.

Anyhooooo Armstrong it's just a game man.....

That it is, man

 

[Cosmichail]

Armstrong,

You make good sense and I agree too there needs to be an overall strategy. I perhaps jumped the gun with the GS because I think with two scientist in SB made me think this was the proposed science city. I love academies and try to build them when I can. I also enjoy making super specialist as boy they sure can help science/commerce/hammers depends on what kind of specialist. The great merchant can help a starving city.

I just wonder are you sure Philosophy is out. I realize the AI goes for it and if Mansa is around he will beat us. I did the academy out of personal habit but then I kind of forget that we are isolated and tech trading is out. I even wrote down all the variants before playing the game and it didn't sink in. DOH!!!

I like a combo of super science/warmonger type games with PA in place to seek out a friend to join forces with. What I was thinking too is we need an army of workers after China is toast. Really need to improve the land get production going and overall Armstrong I totally agree with your gameplan. Don't worry about apologies they aren't necessary I have an SG going and sometimes players forget the objective and work on their own. I really harped on something myself but it didn't happen until my turn arrived. I spent a lot of resources accomplishing that goal.

Long term is not always better than short term. For instance, even if Silk Bend made 40 commerce/turn (which it won't for quite some time) at 100% research, it will take 85 turns for it to make us 1700 beakers. Long term, is it better? Absolutely. Will it help us get Liberalism first? Not as much as taking Philosophy would have.

Isn't that based on 20 beakers which I have found is low for a science city. I think with other tech buildings (even monastery - yes I know no religion DOH) library at least should be able to accomplish more. Is population considered in the formula and what future tiles will be worked. I like to get a city to grow a bit to get tiles (especially cottages, other commerce resources and rivers can help a lot too +1 gold).

BTW I did not pressure Mao for techs but isn't that unlikely now that he's down to one city. The AI usually realizes it's demise and won't trade techs only cash.

This will be a difficult game because a lack of tech trading and isolation. I used to like playing that way but realized the benefits of having other civs with you. And the fun part is stealing their capitol. MOHAAAAA (evil laugh)
Razing everything is good in some sense. Can rinse and repeat army without garrisoning. But losing a capitol is well "OUCH".

Interesting variant and it's easy to see why the real Japan had problems with their Xenophobia. Too bad you can't steal techs like in Alpha Centauri. (expect for those with the Hunter Seeker Algorithm)

So let us go forward and play to get some science so we can research the rest of the world and do some damage. I do realize that other civs might be isolated too which would be a good thing.

 

[armstrong]

I just wonder are you sure Philosophy is out. I realize the AI goes for it and if Mansa is around he will beat us. I did the academy out of personal habit but then I kind of forget that we are isolated and tech trading is out. I even wrote down all the variants before playing the game and it didn't sink in. DOH!!!

I think it is - well, we might be able to research it manually, but it'd make a lot more sense to get CS which is the same cost. Normally it's founded in my games between 500 BC and 600 AD (usually they use a GS for it, too.) It will take us about at least 30 turns to get the Great Library built I think. (Research polytheism->literature, build it somewhere with no marble.)

Which is about the same as: Run 2 scientists in Silk Bend starting right now, it will take about 220/6 = 36ish turns.

It's 380 AD now, so I just don't see it being around in 30ish turns. Not that building the GL is a bad idea at all! And hey, maybe we'll get lucky.

Isn't that based on 20 beakers which I have found is low for a science city. I think with other tech buildings (even monastery - yes I know no religion DOH) library at least should be able to accomplish more. Is population considered in the formula and what future tiles will be worked. I like to get a city to grow a bit to get tiles (especially cottages, other commerce resources and rivers can help a lot too +1 gold).

It's 20 beakers from the academy, which turns 50% of commerce in beakers, so it's from 40 commerce. (or less, in the capital + Bureacracy.) I'm sure Silk Bend will be at least 80 commerce some day, but it's going to be a while to get to 40. That's 10 river villages for non-financial civs. Also, remember, we have no foreign trade routes. That's a big loss.

Incidentally, the main thing really killing our commerce now is that we need to get cottages developed in Lake Placid. Since it has no rivers and no financial trait, they only start at 2F1C instead of 2F3C. Once we get those developed a bit, it will take off. I really think we should not work anything but cottages there unless we need to build a market or university.

BTW I did not pressure Mao for techs but isn't that unlikely now that he's down to one city. The AI usually realizes it's demise and won't trade techs only cash.

He actually has two cities, he took over a barb one at some point. Right now he'll give us Math & Sailing. He also has IW and one other tech. I really think we should string him along as long as he stays away from our cities. We've pushed him back a lot.

So let us go forward and play to get some science so we can research the rest of the world and do some damage. I do realize that other civs might be isolated too which would be a good thing.

Yes, all the civs share an island with one other civ (I think.) Wait, actually - doesn't that mean no tech trading except through war until Compass, since they won't break their monopolies? How does that work?

I think we're not too terrible in science, we just need to settle with Mao from some free techs, get our troops home and stop working mines/building troops so we can build HUGE cities and cut down on costs (we have lots of troops with HR for happiness already), get CS & some courthouses up so we can expand a little bit more. Going for the GL in one city can't hurt, but we really should decide city specialization before we go down that route.

 

[Cosmichail]

Armstrong,

Wait, actually - doesn't that mean no tech trading except through war until Compass, since they won't break their monopolies? How does that work?

I am not sure I understand, but doesn't Alphabet allow them to trade with one another. Depends too on the civ and whether they are building a wonder related to the tech. If it's Mansa he trades like crazy even if he's "cautious" but others will hold out.

Also we can only demand techs meaning we have to settle for peace to get them right? Doesn't that go against the variance if they build on our land
"WAR" which Mao has done by bulding cities on our land. What constitutes our land. ME confused......

Let's hope he doesn't have sailing and finds an island to settle. OH I just hate that when that happens.

 

[JesusOnEez]

Blimey...looks like a lot has been happening in the time since I looked last night. I sleep, you guys play, you sleep, I play (pretty much).

I'll have a proper read when I get home after work, but it seems as if things got a little heated, seems you sorted yourselves out though.

If you remember rightly (Cosmichail may not unless he's read the whole thread from post one), I was originally trying to generate a map with a continent each, which can't actually be done. So, once The Unclean is removed from our island, we'll be in the exact position I'd hoped for at the beginning, minus one Civ, so it's all good as far as I'm concerned.

Religion has been a ***** to get, but it's not integral to the variant. There is a variant rule that states that if a foreign religion spreads to us, then we have to declare war on the founding Civ...this isn't going to happen for a while, as;

A) No-one knows we exists
B) No Open Borders

In this case, we can't steal a religion, and chances are we can't tech for one either, so let's ignore religion...we're not going to get it unless we're very lucky, and we'd probably be far better off with military tech concentration.

Let's get ourselves a couple of boats and start exploring.

Oh, and "got it".

 

[JesusOnEez]

Right, I've read through everything and would like to put my oar in.

With regards to trading, the other Unclean civs can trade with Alphabet. It only needs one civ to have Alphabet to initiate trade with another, however, they will be limited to trading with their island partner, and since the AI tends to research the same stuff, there probably won't be a lot of tech trading going on, especially now all the workers techs are done and dusted. I think when we find the other civs, they shouldn't be too far ahead of us, especially if we get the rest of our island to ourselves.

We have three ways of winning this game...

Spaceship, which will be feasible if we're smacking all the other civ's about (but will probably be boring). Domination (which I'd rather not go for as it would most likely mean leaving other civs alive and that's not really in the spirit of the variant. Finally, Conquest which seems the obvious choice.

If we go for Conquest, the strategy I'd like to take (since we know the general layout of this map type), is to obviously take over our own island, getting rid of Mao in the process. I'd then like to completely take another island (being careful if that'll take us close to Domination). Once we have some stability on the second island, we could destroy the two remaining civs on island number three at our leisure, without having to worry about building more Settlers...we should storm through the third island quite quickly.

With this in mind, as I said before, ignoring religion (it seems futile now), we should concentrate on military techs, and funding for upgrades. We also need to get ships in the water to discover everybody else and decide which of the two remaining islands would be best to take over.

So, let's get our long term strategy straight...who wants to go with the above?

Once we've got our long term strategy straight, we can then talk short term strategies that will work towards our long term aim.

By the way, I know some of you (especially Armstrong it seems), like to look at the "maths" of each city...I personally find that style of play a little tedious, and tend to think more in terms of, "rubbish", "ok", "good" and "great" with regards to city output. My brain starts melting when I look at figures.

So, in summary, who's up for taking another island, then storming island number three for a Conquest victory?