Jon Shafer joins Stardock to work on elemental

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What I know due to the discussions of the last months is that espionage was one of the least welcomed features of Civ4.

I agree that espionage is much maligned these past few months. I liked it though. I didn't get all micro on it, but I liked it when I had an easily won game and could crank it up to 11 and get to see what those lesser civs were working on. Sometimes it would tell me I needed to do some city micro to get the wonder ahead of a civ. Or maybe I would send a spy into that city to destroy his production buildings so I could get the wonder. I liked seeing the techs they were researching. It was all passive and provided information. So it was like "free information" based on your commerce and I enjoyed the passivity of it.

I only played a handful of "Spy" games where I had spies running out there blowing up towns and destroying forges. These were usually "won" games as well and added to the gameplay diversity: "Oh instead of privateers this game, I will run out a bunch of spies and have some fun with that this game." Civ IV never had a lack of options that is for sure, but I digress.

Espionage is OK with me and if Shafer designed and implemented that feather in Civ IV's cap, that's fine as well.
 
I agree that espionage is much maligned these past few months. I liked it though. I didn't get all micro on it, but I liked it when I had an easily won game and could crank it up to 11 and get to see what those lesser civs were working on. Sometimes it would tell me I needed to do some city micro to get the wonder ahead of a civ. Or maybe I would send a spy into that city to destroy his production buildings so I could get the wonder. I liked seeing the techs they were researching. It was all passive and provided information. So it was like "free information" based on your commerce and I enjoyed the passivity of it.

I only played a handful of "Spy" games where I had spies running out there blowing up towns and destroying forges. These were usually "won" games as well and added to the gameplay diversity: "Oh instead of privateers this game, I will run out a bunch of spies and have some fun with that this game." Civ IV never had a lack of options that is for sure, but I digress.

Espionage is OK with me and if Shafer designed and implemented that feather in Civ IV's cap, that's fine as well.

I completely understand, but what you're describing is espionage as a general concept.
And as such, of course espionage makes sense. Much sense, actually.

The funny thing is, espionage would have been immensely senseful in Civ5, especially in combination with the "mysterious" diplomacy.
But, for reasons unknown, Mr. Shafer scrapped even his own brain-children.
 
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6252/shafers_next_step_from_civ_to_.php This has been posted before by superjay. You should give it a read if you haven't already.
Read it: what teflon-smooth CHANTA! He's done everything right, and decided it's time to leave Firaxis on his own accord. And after reading this interview, who wouldn't like a guy like Jon? Only those who can recognize a chanta a mile away.

Smooth manipulating snake in suit. He'll go far, mark my words.
 
2kSuit: Dude, Jon, you will include 1UPT into Civ 5 at all costs.

Jon: 1UPT? What is that?

2kSuit: You know, dude, 1 unit only in each hexagonal tile. We decided that it would be very cool and applealing to the mass markets. You will adjust every other aspect of the design to this concept.

Jon: But... but...

2kSuit: Yes. Your butt depends on it.

Jon: What will I tell the fans that are awaiting a good and working solution to the Stacks?

2kSuit: Tell them that you played Panzer General when you were a kid, and you loved it so much, that you wanted to incorporate its combat system to Civ. That will do it.

Jon: Ooookayyyy...



Sure. That is what happened. Of course Jon is not the main responsible for the design decisions of Civ 5. We all know that.

:rolleyes:

The above scenario (sans sarcasm) seems perfectly plausible. I don't really understand why this kind of situation is so hard to believe for you. It's a really common thing for a creative vision to get mangled by outside interests, not to mention being influenced by others working on the project. And the guy needs to eat, so caving into the suits is understandable, while not exactly commendable. I'm not saying that's what happened with Civ V, but I'm not completely ruling it out either. Why does the opposite idea that Shafer held 2K and Firaxis in a tyrannical death grip make any more sense?

What I don't get is how many of you assume that he is a good modder, programmer, etc. Do you know him? I don't. Do you? I mean, the only thing we have to judge his work is, well, the result of his work. And in the case of Civ5, it is NOT GOOD (I avoid using the word that comes to my mind only to avoid contaminating the post). Why would I assume that he is a good modder or anything if the result of his known work is mediocre? Why? As for BTS and previous iterations, blind biker is right... his contribution was infinitesimal, and even then, mediocre at the most (espionage is a good example, but his mod is also not the best out there).

Come on, I am also in the credits of the BUG mod, but my contribution was infinitesimal, and I'm not going around the world saying that I was a key contributor to one of the best mods for Civ4... nor do I expect anyone else to say that.

The truth is, a person like him is only known for his work. And his work is clearly not the best so far.

What is so hard to accept from those facts?

But then you are just assuming that Shafer is the bad guy and a fraud based soley on the fact that you didn't like Civ V. I mean, it's not even like he has a string of failures that we can use to prove that he is the radical element, like Uwe Boll or somebody. Is it not his first post as Lead Dev? Sheesh.

I'm not saying that he should get a free pass or whatever. I'll definitely wait a few more months on Elemental. But given what little we know about the development of Civ V, I just don't get how you can be so ready to string the man up. We should be wary of all the parties involved. I just bought TES Oblivion, and when I saw the 2K Games splash screen, I seriously considered just ejecting the disc right then and there. I know you want someone to be held responsible for Civ V, but to hang that totally on Shafer, given the little evidence we have, just seems like a massive overreaction.
 
Knowing that Jon was once "one of us" or at least "one of them(modders)" I have to wish him success and hope that he will show himself to be both a talented game maker, and a high fidelity proponent of computer gamer's interests.

I have not played Civ5, so I can only speculate based on what I've read other computer gamers say. Based on what I've read, I don't think Jon is off to a good start here on exemplifying the "ambassador" of computer gamer interests as a developer. From what little I know about Wardell, promoting the interests of computer gamers is one of his agendas. So perhaps moving to Stardock will enable Jon to become what he can be, someone who makes great games for gamers, and not someone who makes bad games for profit.
 
Read it: what teflon-smooth CHANTA! He's done everything right, and decided it's time to leave Firaxis on his own accord. And after reading this interview, who wouldn't like a guy like Jon? Only those who can recognize a chanta a mile away.

Smooth manipulating snake in suit. He'll go far, mark my words.

To me it sounds a lot like someone trying to scream at us that he did not like the way 2K ran things. It may just be my opinion but so far all of Shafer's work has been good or HAD POTENTIAL. Virtually every concept in ciV had potential to be great but was poorly implemented. Have you ever heard of the tragedy of the music industry? Back in the day record companies would seek out bands that had the potential to be great and give the the opportunity to be so. Now if your not an instant hit, you are not worth their time.

Basically what I'm trying to say is Shafer has potential but was promoted to fast, I think when he is older and more experienced he will be great, but If we don't give him a chance then boy are we missing out.

Of course I could be wrong and you could be right but only time will tell.
 
To me it sounds a lot like someone trying to scream at us that he did not like the way 2K ran things.
Eh... Well, I'm having a splitting headache, and I would really love to be in agreement with you, as it takes much less energy. I went back and ran through the interview one more time, and my headache just got worse. I have worked too many years in corporate environments, and saw the way people smooth-talk their way into positions where they don't belong. Most middle-to-high management positions are decided at the golf course or other pseudo-informal circumstances, and by building around a walled garden of people using deception and manipulation. At the highest stakes, the game goes on by mergers, outsourcing, re-organizations etc. etc. but it's always just a game. That's the environment I learned to sniff out chantas. Taking other people's ideas and claiming them for themselves, claiming credit for themselves for every and any little thing then putting it in the resume in a highly inflated form. For example. And you can see the really talented people running away from teams whee there's a chanta, because they hate to do the chanta's work, hate being robbed of credit and recognition. And then you see the chanta being promoted to a higher position, or just moving horizontally to a new group or project, leaving a trail of devastation behind them but always capable of describing it as some kind of success. For example, we had this product running on Solaris, and then this chanta decided to push Linux instead (Linux is the next big thing, how can we go wrong with that, right?), and we were forced to take RHEL but to support our product it had to be heavily modified, to the extent that RedHat couldn't support it, even though we had to pay the license for support. That version was developed by a completely new group, formed and dedicated to create this very own version of RHEL. That group, of course, cost a lot of money. It produced spaghetti-code Linux but we had to use it, because chanta said so, and chanta had the ear of the higher-ups (remember, chanta's manipulative powers). Finally, our product ran like crap on the Linux setup we were initially supposed to use, so we had to get a much more expensive blade system. The Linux licenses and the more expensive blade server (even without counting the whole new Linux group) cost more per unit transaction, than the previous system which was already working. And as I said, we had to use spaghetti-Linux which was unmaintainable, either by us or the Linux group itself. This brought a lot of grief to our customers, and a lot of them canceled their contracts with us. And then chanta got promoted to a higher position, and I have no doubt whatsoever that the mess he left behind was registered as "successful Linux migration project" in his resume, and might have served as a stepping stone in his career. Together with all the starry-eyed execs he knew at the time.

I learned a lot from that experience, but I had many, many more. I just kept my eyes and ears open - that's how you learn. Some people can go through their whole corporate careers of 20+ years and be ignorant of what is really going on around them. Thinking "oh, this reorganization was really necessary? Though I thought all was fine as it is.. " without much questioning anything. I was cursed with an inquisitive mind and an innate suspicion of authority, so that helped and still helps, to see through the games.

I don't think any of this convinced you to look deeper into these corporate games and gamers, but let me ask you this: do you know any of the executives that caused great losses to their respective publicly traded companies, that have NOT found another executive position shortly after leaving those companies behind? Neither do I! Just think about this for a split second, even if you dismiss everything else I wrote, even if you dismiss what I write out of sheer gut reaction or because you don't like me personally.
 
^I simply disagree with you on the premise that JS is a Chanta. He does not seem the type to me.

and if you think YOU got Chanta problems try working for GM or the EoP [shudder]
 
Eh... Well, I'm having a splitting headache, and I would really love to be in agreement with you, as it takes much less energy. I went back and ran through the interview one more time, and my headache just got worse. I have worked too many years in corporate environments, and saw the way people smooth-talk their way into positions where they don't belong. Most middle-to-high management positions are decided at the golf course or other pseudo-informal circumstances, and by building around a walled garden of people using deception and manipulation. At the highest stakes, the game goes on by mergers, outsourcing, re-organizations etc. etc. but it's always just a game. That's the environment I learned to sniff out chantas. Taking other people's ideas and claiming them for themselves, claiming credit for themselves for every and any little thing then putting it in the resume in a highly inflated form. For example. And you can see the really talented people running away from teams whee there's a chanta, because they hate to do the chanta's work, hate being robbed of credit and recognition. And then you see the chanta being promoted to a higher position, or just moving horizontally to a new group or project, leaving a trail of devastation behind them but always capable of describing it as some kind of success. For example, we had this product running on Solaris, and then this chanta decided to push Linux instead (Linux is the next big thing, how can we go wrong with that, right?), and we were forced to take RHEL but to support our product it had to be heavily modified, to the extent that RedHat couldn't support it, even though we had to pay the license for support. That version was developed by a completely new group, formed and dedicated to create this very own version of RHEL. That group, of course, cost a lot of money. It produced spaghetti-code Linux but we had to use it, because chanta said so, and chanta had the ear of the higher-ups (remember, chanta's manipulative powers). Finally, our product ran like crap on the Linux setup we were initially supposed to use, so we had to get a much more expensive blade system. The Linux licenses and the more expensive blade server (even without counting the whole new Linux group) cost more per unit transaction, than the previous system which was already working. And as I said, we had to use spaghetti-Linux which was unmaintainable, either by us or the Linux group itself. This brought a lot of grief to our customers, and a lot of them canceled their contracts with us. And then chanta got promoted to a higher position, and I have no doubt whatsoever that the mess he left behind was registered as "successful Linux migration project" in his resume, and might have served as a stepping stone in his career. Together with all the starry-eyed execs he knew at the time.

I learned a lot from that experience, but I had many, many more. I just kept my eyes and ears open - that's how you learn. Some people can go through their whole corporate careers of 20+ years and be ignorant of what is really going on around them. Thinking "oh, this reorganization was really necessary? Though I thought all was fine as it is.. " without much questioning anything. I was cursed with an inquisitive mind and an innate suspicion of authority, so that helped and still helps, to see through the games.

I don't think any of this convinced you to look deeper into these corporate games and gamers, but let me ask you this: do you know any of the executives that caused great losses to their respective publicly traded companies, that have NOT found another executive position shortly after leaving those companies behind? Neither do I! Just think about this for a split second, even if you dismiss everything else I wrote, even if you dismiss what I write out of sheer gut reaction or because you don't like me personally.

biker, man, you grasped the concept of a chanta like nobody else... amazing. It is exactly what you describe. And the same happened to me, many times, and you learn from the experience. I guess many here do not have that much corporate experience, or maybe some choose just to "not see the game", but as soon as you open your eyes, observe better, and compare experiences, the chantas become as visible as the code of the Matrix was to Neo.

JS has ALL, I repeat, ALL the characteristics of a chanta as I learned to recognize them in 20+ years of corporate experience in 3 different countries.

Not only that, he seems to have the best traits of the Masters of Chanterism, only to be found in South America. And believe me, that is a lot, A LOT to say.
 
JS has ALL, I repeat, ALL the characteristics of a chanta as I learned to recognize them in 20+ years of corporate experience in 3 different countries.

Not only that, he seems to have the best traits of the Masters of Chanterism, only to be found in South America. And believe me, that is a lot, A LOT to say.

LOL ROFLMAO... The Luke Skywalker of Chantarism.

I don't think it's as bad as all that. You guys sound like those debby downer employees working in the basement, mumbling about their missing stapler. Moderator Action: Please don't troll other people.

EDIT: That's an Office Space reference!! I was just poking a little lighthearted fun at the gravity of this chanta situation.

It's his personality. SOme people like it, some people don't. The president of Stardock gave him a job working on mods for a game of his. Maybe he will get to do a game of his own some time.

I agree that some people get promoted for no good reason, some people have life easier than others, some people bite off more than they can chew and fail, some people bite off more than they can chew and succeed. It's not worth getting into the bowels of Chantarism and its fine South American intricacies.
 
LOL ROFLMAO... The Luke Skywalker of Chantarism.

I don't think it's as bas as all that. You guys sound like those debby downer employees working in the basement, mumbling about their missing stapler.

naaa... it's simpler than that. You just don't get it.
 
^I simply disagree with you on the premise that JS is a Chanta. He does not seem the type to me.

LOL ROFLMAO... I don't think it's as bas as all that.

Those are extremely timid arguments. "I don't think...", "He doesn't seem...". Is that the best you got? Here's what I submit to you:

Some of the things a chanta does:
- takes credit for every tiny little bit he does, makes sure his name is prominent (disproportionately to actual contribution)
- gets others to do his work for him
- others leave tired of working for chanta and getting lesser recognition
- chanta gets promoted
- does horrible work, leaves it behind
- publicly describes it as success
- finds new job (horizontal movement), gets higher ups to describe it as a good acquisition/hire

Whom does the above remind you of? You don't have to answer if it causes too much cognitive dissonance. You can continue to disagree. What saddens me a tiny bit is, I bet neither of you have actually read what I wrote, even though I was gracious enough to read Shafer's second interview twice. :sad:
 
It's not worth getting into the bowels of Chantarism and its fine South American intricacies.

More seriously now... You know, that sentence becomes dangerous with time. I mean, yes, in the beginning chantas only destroy a little company, then a little municipality, here a stupid game, there a silly road... people say "oh well, it's just how it is", and things like that.

Two or three generations later, uncontested, they destroy entire countries. I know from experience. They start being the "rarity", and one day you wake up, and the country is overtaken. Now, what happens to a country like this?

The third world happens. You cannot even imagine the destructive power of the chantas when they reach critical mass. One good example: Argentina. In 1930, Argentina was the 5th country in the world in terms of quality of life, exports, GDP, etc. Canada was not even in the top 20 at that point in time. Look now.

A big part of such a destruction of a beautiful and rich country came from the chantas. Believe it or not.

I just reject any resemblance of one because I had to see how they destroy entire societies. Luckily for you (so far), you never saw that happen in your countries. But keep being lenient, and that may change... hopefully not, as I changed SA for NA looking for something else, not the same...
 
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