No need for sarcasm for most of your post. A lot of people stuck with Civ3 when Civ4 came out. Civ4's release was *terrible*.
I don't feel the need to expand or argue further. I don't see this going anywhere else.
Jon Shafer leaves Firaxis!
- Thread starter Windsor
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I don't feel the need to expand or argue further. I don't see this going anywhere else.
I'm on this site because the civ 5 does suck and now I'm even more worried for the franchise. I've wrote this in other threads before, but I think its time to hang up the civ series. Nowhere left to go with it, unless they can remake SMAC. But odds are low.
I'm not to concerned with why JS left, I'm more concerned with where the franchise turns now. Other people mentioned the publisher having a big role in this. Make sense, try to drop 2K games, but they might have to full fill further contract obligations before that happens.
This game can kiss my butt anyhow, total disappointment. Its just not fun. Its like stats.... it looks good on paper, but doesn't produce in the real thing.
I hope firaxis goes back to making real time strategy games like Gettysburg. Would be a lot of fun.
blind biker
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In a way, I think I can even agree with you, that the Civilization franchise is in danger of dying, but not for the reasons you mentioned. I can think of many things that could be done. For example, take the Civ IV codebase and add the hexagons - even better, use hexes (and pentagons) to make spherical maps. Add the customizable unit-idea from SMAC, expand the tech tree to future techs (a bit further than now, anyway), add a few more leaders and civs, and voilá, there's a Civ VI that I would pay euros to play.
But... yes, there is a danger, as I said, for the franchise to die. The reason is, the developer team seems to in its death throes. With Civ V, they just can't seem to make a game that doesn't crash. Even after numerous hotfixes and a big patch (and another hotfix), the game is still crashing for a large majority of people - and probably for everyone that has the balls to play large maps. Firaxis is utterly unable to tame the Civ V bugs! And Civ V came out without some of the most basic elements of Civ, such as the replay at the end of the game, something which has been a great motivator for many a civ fan. It is apparent that the Civ team at firaxis couldn't code their way out of a paper box. Are THESE the guys that one would give a chance at making Civ VI? I think not.
I am well aware of the definition of the cosntructive criticism and it's generally popular accepted usage. However, I tend to view all sort of "talk" ineffectual and ultimately irrelevant (especially on a platform like a fan forum which primary function is to, well, facilitate talks). The only relevant thing is what we "do".
An active feedback, the kind which you would prefer, is only effective if it is being fed to someone who has the power to DO things. So ultimately, the real effectiveness only lies with the ability to DO things. That will explain why you rationale with the office setting is not relevant here, because in an office environment all parties involve has the ability and responsibility to act (i.e. DO things) instead of just talk.
Also, a constructive feedback is only so when it is actively sought after and asked for by the same people who can DO something. Otherwise, it's all just wild talk and people with the ability to DO something might not even be receptive to all your "feedback".
So here's the million dollar question, are you one of the people who can DO anything with ciV? If not, on what grounds are you asking for constructive feedback?
On forums, or most of them anyway, asking for and providing constructive feedback more often than not is just a way for poster to sound mature and intellectual, while in actual fact they are seldom either of those things.
So the simple answer is (if you skipped the complex part above), constructive feedback is as effective as "vitriol" in this particular environment, and I will stick to my favorite brand of sulfuric acid, unless I see one of the developer asking for constructive feedback.
Dale
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Oh no.... you can't use hexes (or pentagons)! You're dumbing the game down from a 8 movement compass to a 6 movement compass (or worse, a 5 movement compass)!
Your "nowhere left to go" comment struck a chord, but it's more about us players than the franchise or the developer. The harsh truth for empire building fans like us, there's only ONE, singular establish empire building game out in the market, so regardless of what is the quality, we really have nowhere left to go.
Oh, I am well aware of paradox interactive brand of empire builder like HoI, EU, Vic, but those always play more like simulation to me. Besides, they are too eurocentric for my taste.
I also heard about Elemental War of Magic, but I read somewhere that it's also buggy as the burning down underworld.
Are there any other alternatives out there? Besides Civ4 I mean.
Just a random aside, but I keep seeing people write "dump the publisher" as if Firaxis can choose to have their games published by another company, but I thought 2K owned Firaxis. Is that not the case? My understanding was that Firaxis couldn't part from 2K even if they wanted to, but 2K could choose to sell, downsize, or dissolve Firaxis if they desired. Anyone know the details?
Dale
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DaviddesJ
Deity
Firaxis has been a wholly owned subsidiary of Take-Two Interactive for many years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firaxis_Games
2K Games is also a subsidiary of Take-Two. 2K has been the publisher for Firaxis games, but that is perhaps not necessarily an immutable relationship just because they are both under the Take-Two umbrella.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firaxis_Games
2K Games is also a subsidiary of Take-Two. 2K has been the publisher for Firaxis games, but that is perhaps not necessarily an immutable relationship just because they are both under the Take-Two umbrella.
Thanks to Dale and DaviddesJ.
So just FYI... "dumping the publisher" is not an option. (I guess some people assume Firaxis is still an independent studio?) 2K and Firaxis are both owned by Take Two Interactive. For better or worse, Firaxis is stuck with 2K Games until and unless Take Two Interactive decides to sell or dissolve Firaxis.
So just FYI... "dumping the publisher" is not an option. (I guess some people assume Firaxis is still an independent studio?) 2K and Firaxis are both owned by Take Two Interactive. For better or worse, Firaxis is stuck with 2K Games until and unless Take Two Interactive decides to sell or dissolve Firaxis.
Dale
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And legally T2 now own the "Civilization" IP so even if Sid did another "Microprose" and leave to form a new company, they can't take the IP with them. They'd have to create a new IP/franchise and not make it too similar or face legal action from T2.
Yes, well, I will refer to one of the very intellectual <sic> post written as a reply to one of my rant thread regarding the copyright law in the US:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9750154&postcount=34
the full quote:
It is too intellectual for me to cross-reference, so, as the meastro said, play it as it lays.
Yep, that was my understanding as well - hence my confusion at those "dump the publisher" comments. If anything, the opposite will happen - the publisher will dump the developer, and license the IP to another studio to develop a new "Civilization" game.
For better or worse, Take Two owns Firaxis and owns the Civilization franchise; we're not going to see a "Civilization" game that doesn't have the oversight and influence of 2K Games (until and unless T2 sells the IP).
While I'd feel conflicted about another developer making a "Civilization" game, we have to acknowledge that it's a very real possibility. Take Two isn't keeping Firaxis around for sentimental reasons; they'll live only as long as they remain a profitable addition to Take Two's portfolio.
And as far as I am concerned, stop trying to find excuse for the developer (which is Firaxis studio). It truly and honestly disgust me. As if you are saying, blame anything and anyone else BUT Firaxis. The bad guys are 2K and/or T2. Blah blah.
Seriously.
How guilible can a person be?
When a product is prefix with a name of a human being, the creator no less, it is unlikely said human being will easily sell all controls of the product away without some form of exit clause or stipulation. And in the event that said person really did such a daft thing, let it be known that while one can sell the "intellectual property" rights to another party, one can NEVER sell his name. not even after his ultimate demise.
Seriously.
How guilible can a person be?
When a product is prefix with a name of a human being, the creator no less, it is unlikely said human being will easily sell all controls of the product away without some form of exit clause or stipulation. And in the event that said person really did such a daft thing, let it be known that while one can sell the "intellectual property" rights to another party, one can NEVER sell his name. not even after his ultimate demise.
Who are you talking to?
It wasn't directed to any poster in particular, just a general sense that many people are trying to picture Firaxis in an innocent light. Thus the post.
If you have a realistic view of the responsibilities of all parties involve, then the post is NOT directed at you.
If you have a realistic view of the responsibilities of all parties involve, then the post is NOT directed at you.
I think I have a realistic view, but who knows if you would. I also have a clear awareness of what I know and what I don't (hence my questions about ownership, IPs, etc), which seems elusive sometimes.
But in a nutshell, I don't excuse Firaxis at all. I think I understand why they did what they did with Civ5, and I disagree with those choices. I also recognize that I have very little experience in professional game design, but I have enough experience at a software company to know that "Design" and "Implementation" are often very, very different things. Firaxis may have had the best intentions with this project, but external factors (such as 2K Games' FYE) may have compelled them to cut corners. Does that excuse them from the remaining design flaws? No. But IMO, the problems with Civ 5 aren't solely developer issues.
blind biker
King
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I don't mean to pour oil on the fire, but my humble opinion is that Firaxis both designed AND implemented Civ V very poorly.
I agree.
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