Joseph Stalin

[Alpha Killer II]

I usually hear about 30,000,000 deaths, most of them having nothing to do with corruption.
I read somewhere that he only killed 13,000,000 people
Genghis Khan was practically a Barbarian, but he is aight
Why, because tsars werent murdering their best generals?
The Tsars werent able to motivate their own people w/ the nessescary amount of propaganda, in fact, The Soviets created Propaganda (From which I watched on Google Video) AND Havent u seen India in late last year, The General Dude BSed the Leader completely, if that happened to Stalin, then USSR would fall easily when Hitler Came...

And to all you people sayin **** bout Stalin, well he didnt have a better choice back then, about 20,000 bosheviks were in USSR and was tryin to stop Stalin, for that he HAD to kill them and anyone that could they might possibly recruit, times were harder back then
AND the Government Stalin Made practically took out Terrorism, but after the fall of the wall, and even right now, there are a great deal of terrorists in Russia, In Fact, Terrorism AS WE KNOW IT came right after USSR fell

 

[RulerOfDaPeople]

Like I said, I know very very little about Joseph Stalin. Tha'ts why I started this thread because I want to learn. The only thing I know is the accomplishments of the Russians as a people. From reading about him here, It's also ironic that there was a revolution to get rid of the Tsars because of their opresson on the middle and low class with how they used them half like slaves, yet Stalin came in did just the same maybe on a worse scale.

I respect the Russians as a civilization for their acheivements, (doesn't mean I liked them) so maybe my lack of knowlege of their leadership is contradictory with what I do know about the people's accomplishemts. And there just seems to be so many of them from reading their history. It's like THEIR people should be called the Immortals rather than Persia because you kill one and more just take their place. Sounds like no matter how many die they just get back up and continue strait toward their goal with more people. That shows resiliance and determination in a civilization's people.

Thank you for all the replies every one! I'm learning alot from you!

 

[RulerOfDaPeople]

By the way does any one know of a good read online to Stalin's history from the 2 world wars and beyond?

 

[Turner]

AND the Government Stalin Made practically took out Terrorism, but after the fall of the wall, and even right now, there are a great deal of terrorists in Russia, In Fact, Terrorism AS WE KNOW IT came right after USSR fell

You're right. The USSR falling was responsible for the Lockerbie bombing, the Beiruit bombing, and Iran taking over and holding hostage all those embassy people in 1979.

 

[Kan' Sharuminar]

I read somewhere that he only killed 13,000,000 people

Thirteen million people never warrants an only.

And to all you people sayin **** bout Stalin, well he didnt have a better choice back then, about 20,000 bosheviks were in USSR and was tryin to stop Stalin, for that he HAD to kill them and anyone that could they might possibly recruit, times were harder back then

Is this referring to the purges? Because your '20,000' people was responded to with the deaths of hundreds of thousands. I would hardly say it had to be done.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Soviet Union should win battle againist nazist much easier without Stalin.

Joe did kill most of his good leaders. could the tzar have moved the production behind the mountains and "inspired" the defense of Stalingrad as well? debatable.

 

[REDY]

The Tsars werent able to motivate their own people w/ the nessescary amount of propaganda, in fact, The Soviets created Propaganda
This propaganda maybe hadnt so much effect when Germans should count thousands of volunteers from Ukraine, Baltic states or Kavkaz.

Joe did kill most of his good leaders. could the tzar have moved the production behind the mountains and "inspired" the defense of Stalingrad as well? debatable.
If tzar had power, the invasion should never be. It was Soviet Union which gave independence to Poles, Finns and Baltics, there was their economical power.
Moving production was in large states logic, it was made as well in China.
Stalin ignored every signs of danger from fascists.
Stalin blindness made road to Stalingrad battle. It was miracle that Germans should moved so far as they did and only thanks one man.
Of course I cant tell alternative history what should some another Igor or Ivan made. But I am sure that 80 of 100 will handle better with it.

 

[scy12]

The Tsars werent able to motivate their own people w/ the nessescary amount of propaganda, in fact, The Soviets created Propaganda
This propaganda maybe hadnt so much effect when Germans should count thousands of volunteers from Ukraine, Baltic states or Kavkaz.

Joe did kill most of his good leaders. could the tzar have moved the production behind the mountains and "inspired" the defense of Stalingrad as well? debatable.
If tzar had power, the invasion should never be. It was Soviet Union which gave independence to Poles, Finns and Baltics, there was their economical power.
Moving production was in large states logic, it was made as well in China.
Stalin ignored every signs of danger from fascists.
Stalin blindness made road to Stalingrad battle. It was miracle that Germans should moved so far as they did and only thanks one man.
Of course I cant tell alternative history what should some another Igor or Ivan made. But I am sure that 80 of 100 will handle better with it.

What Tsar ? you are forgetting something. If it wasn't comrade Stalin it would be comrade Trotsky or someone else in charge.

 

[RulerOfDaPeople]

I think he means if Russia hadn't gone through a revolution a few decades before. But then again, as I implied in my last post, I don't see how the 2 different governments would really be any different. Both governments/leaderships seemed to have done the same things to their people and to their neighbors.

 

[ParkCungHee]

The Tsars werent able to motivate their own people w/ the nessescary amount of propaganda, in fact, The Soviets created Propaganda (From which I watched on Google Video) AND Havent u seen India in late last year, The General Dude BSed the Leader completely, if that happened to Stalin, then USSR would fall easily when Hitler Came...

Gee, if Stalin was so well loved, how come the idea of fighting for an invading foreign army intent on the destruction of their people sounded like a better idea than serving Stalin for over One Million People. For an idea of that, that means 1 in 34 Soviet citizens who served in the war, served on the German side.

I read somewhere that he only killed 13,000,000 people.

First of all, thats like saying hitler only killed 5.8 million Jews, it doesnt make him any better. Second of all the numbers vary, but 13 million is generally considered wrong.

And to all you people sayin **** bout Stalin, well he didnt have a better choice back then, about 20,000 bosheviks were in USSR and was tryin to stop Stalin, for that he HAD to kill them and anyone that could they might possibly recruit, times were harder back then

bullfeathers. To the Highest Degree. Every other leader in the world, including Adolf Hitler did not have as wide scale executions for political reason. Times were harder yes, because monsters like Stalin existed. Again, every other leader in the world got by without death on this scale. As for those who were "tryin to stop Stalin", most of them were executed because of a supposed plot of secretly collaborating with the Nazis. There has been a scrap of evidence offered by either the Soviets or the Germans on this supposedly vast conspiracy, and believe me, if their was anything resembling colaboration of the General Staff of the Soviet Union with the Nazis, it would have been examined from every possible angle, because it would re-write the History But none of the millions of researchers on the war have found any contacts the General Staff had.

AND the Government Stalin Made practically took out Terrorism, but after the fall of the wall, and even right now, there are a great deal of terrorists in Russia, In Fact, Terrorism AS WE KNOW IT came right after USSR fell

Thrown onto the bombing of Beirut, the Hostages in Iran, and the Lockerbie bombing, don't forget the Basques, the IRA, Entebbe airport, the PLO, Algeria, and the Red Brigades. Thats just what I can name off the top of my head.

 

[REDY]

What Tsar ? you are forgetting something. If it wasn't comrade Stalin it would be comrade Trotsky or someone else in charge.

I was replying on previous post.

 

[Adler17]

Alpha Killer II, do you really believe that BS? Such an argumentation can be used for every other crime in history. Anyway why should there be so many Soviet people wanting to stop him? I mean 13 millions being killed by him can't be all in a plot against him! Otherwise he would have been dead. No, he was a bad leader like Hitler and Mao and Pol Pot. They all belong to a certain class of gansters. Who was the worst is debatable but as being such bad as*es it is not very relevant.

Adler

 

[Alpha Killer II]

*SRRY BOUT TYPOS!!!* nvm bout the 13,000,000, it was ONLY in world war 2 (Sorry, I was readin Alamac) and I also had typo @ the # of bosheviks, its APPROXAMATELY 200,000, but still, anyone of them could be a possible conspirator

 

[Maimonides]

Alpha Killer II, twice now you have suggested that thousands of Bolsheviks were trying to kill Stalin. Stalin was a Bolshevik, at least during the days before & immediately after the 1917 revolution. Get a new almanac.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Alpha Killer, was this kid a possible cospirator?

Spoiler :

 

[Verbose]

Now, I'm as die-hard opponent of Bolshevism and Stalin as you can get, but the 50 million number is completely unreasonable. It only entered the mainstream because during Soviet rule it was completely impossible to give anything more then conjecture.
But now it seems completely unfeesable. The Population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, meaning to combine 50 million of his own people, with 30 million in the war, we are looking at one half of the Soviet Union killed off. This would be a number completely unparalleled in history. Now, at the end of the Second World war, the Soviet Union was still able to field 20 million soldiers. China compartively fielded 5 million soldiers at this time. So out of a population reduced by half, to 80 million people, we now add on twenty million people who are not involved in raising crops, running factories, or basically being part of the nation in any functional way. This would mean basically the end of anything that could be described as Russian society. We'd still have excess cities in Russia to this day from this. The real number is much closer to 20 million.

The high estimates tend to factor in the compounded effect of a demographic increase in population that never occurred. So it's not just a figure of people killed, but of people killed and of those never born as a consequence.

 

[RulerOfDaPeople]

Very clever point! Though, unless it was a result of those killed having been pregnant or expecting children, I really wouldn't consider people not expanding their families a big issue. I mean the human race is already overpopulating the earth as it is and most wildlife don't have much of a habitat to live in, thus we see the numbers have ALOT of species declining in the endangered list.

(I would hate to see Tigers, Cheetahs, Pandas, Lions, etc. and all those cool exotic animals wiped out.)

Wow, where did that come from?

(And yes, I do know that you were refferring to how they got their estimate of that number. Sorry, I'm tired.)

 

[Illdisposed]

That bastard is at the worst level oof politicians on one step with Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot and perhaps Genghis Khan. I hope they all burn in hell now.

Adler

Kill one man, and you are the murderer; slaughter a million, and you are the conquerer...

 

[REDY]

Kill one man, and you are the murderer; slaughter a million, and you are the conquerer...

Hmm it sounds a little as our thread man: The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistics.

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

RED ALERT QUOTE!!
"When you kill one... it is a tragedy. When you kill ten million? It is a statistic. They call me Killer, but I live only to serve the People. And the People's history will judge me; where the Romans failed, I will succeed! Russia's borders will stretch from coast to coast! For a united Russia is our destiny. Those lands were taken away by corrupt Czarist diplomats and criminal military officers - they were the enemies of the People!"

But then again, as I implied in my last post, I don't see how the 2 different governments would really be any different. Both governments/leaderships seemed to have done the same things to their people and to their neighbors.

You hit that right on the nosie! If there was ever a book better detailing how the Bolsheviks became that which they set out to destroy, read no further than George Orwell's Animal Farm.

Stalin's Folly by Constantine Pleshakov might interest you, then. It tries to go into Stalin's motivations and reactions to the Barbarossa invasion in the first few days.

What reaction? I understand that at the beginning of the Operation, Stalin didn't even think the Germans were really invading. He actually went so far as to order the frontline troops not to engage the Germans. Thank God they disobeyed.

And as for the actual fighting... true, the Red Army practiced the policy of 'deserters will be shot', but what really carried them forward was their own determination. The event was called "The Great Patriotic War", when the Soviet Union no longer fought for Stalin, but for victory over the Germans.
Napoleon Bonaparte sums this up best: "A man will not have himself killed for a half-pence a day or a petty distinction. You must speak to the soul in order to electrify him." For Russians, there is nothing more electrifying than the Motherland.

...its APPROXAMATELY 200,000, but still, anyone of them could be a possible conspirator

See, that's exactly the sort of paranoid thinking that led Stalin to orchestrate his infamous purges.