josh4bs' attempt at getting better

[barbertje]

Played to 500BC...Save is attached.

I will have to add more of a write-up later tonight.

Don't forget to switch to representation, and organized religion too.

You still can't work the gems. I'd have settled 1 N of the gems. I think you should settle 1 SE of the gems soon.

Producing a settler for this city is far more important than building chizen itza.
(almost anything is more important than building chizen itza)
The only advantage of chizen Itza is the 25% defense bonus, and you won't need that with the great wall and no AI's on your continent.

You should have started farming Berlin earlier. Your cities can grow very large with representation and your happy resources. I think Berlin needs a library and not a temple, because you can then run additional specialists next to your wonders to
try to get a few scientists .

You must try to improve the good tiles first, The riverside tiles in Berlin are better than the ordinary grassland, and the floodplains around Munich are better than plains or grasslands. You have enough workers, but they've been improving too much cottage tiles you won't use for a long time.

Do you want to run specialists in Munich? I think cottaging is bett with a couple of floodplain farms for initial growth. It's faster to let all workers work on the same far

The wheat in Berlin and the corn in Nidaros can be irrigated after you get civil service,
so it will give one more food. This means you need a chain of farms starting next to a river or lake, wich each will irrigate the next farm.
The easiest way to do that is farming the tile SW of berlin (the chain can also go through a city, if it's not on a hill), and the tile 2 E of Nidaros.

I would use Nidaros for a second production city and mine the hills, and not bother with non-riverside cottages there. Cottaging it up and moving the captol to Nidaros later is also possible. It's nicely in the middle of the island.
You'll want to mine the riverside hills soon anyway.

You really don't need a courthouse yet. The usual rule of thumb for a courthouse, is when your upkeep is 8, and you are nowhere near that anywhere. Munich could really use a library with its gold and floodplain cottages.

 

[shlks]

It's faster to let all workers work on the same far

I'd like to emphasize this. When you stack workers on the same tile and use the same commands their efforts are put together shortening the timespan required to finish the improvement. For now your workers are ahead of schedule ( except you need mines in Nidaros, the city is currently working unimproved hills.) Non of your workers are... working together so just wanted to make sure you know. Plus it's easier to keep track of them as grouped units. (put workers on the same tile and click "go to to all" buttons then hit escape)

Also I noticed you haven't adopted any civics. Honestly I have never played a game without going slavery early. It's a boon for early expansion and military production but at this point I'm not sure how valuable it may be to caste system which is also on the table. Wait a minute you have the pyramids! You should probably adopt representation and caste system and run scientist/ farms in Munich soon! Slavery would help you rex more (Rapid Expansion) but the tech bonus of representation/ caste is probably too valuable.

You popped a great spy in Berlin which is unfortunate since you are isolated for now. IMO compared to the alternatives a golden age would be the best use. I think you should farm Munich and let it grow to happy cap, use a golden age, switch civics and run as many scientist as they can. This lets you change civics with no anarchy and double the great people points for a scientist. (GPP is doubled during golden ages) The alternative is to run slavery for expansion and cottage Munich still running rep for happiness. You should switch the courthouse in for a library either way.

If I where you I would have expanded faster. Cancel the Chichen Itza in Nidaros and build mines on the hills they're working. Build a settler and probably settle near the gems/ floodplains for commerce. Then you could also settle east of munich on the coast for fish/ floodplains. There's also some spots for production/ commerce west of Nidaros (probably settle on the plains hill 1N of the forest). You may find you need a couple workers after expanding especially when on jungle demolition.

Keep teching currency, it's one of the strongest techs in the game. After that I would tech iron working to remove jungle and find iron. You have more options from there. You could go for literature for the Great Library/ National Epic in Nidaros if you cottage Munich. You could tech civil service and add some cottage to Berlin for strong commerce/ production there (perhaps a little late for strong mid game cottages). You could even prioritize Optics to meet other AI. You will want to add fishing somewhere for Hamburg.

Oh and irrigate the corn in advance of civil service for Nidaros. Put a farm 2E and put cottages elsewhere if desired.

Map seems set up nicely for a cultural victory. I'm not very experienced with cultural victories but you'll want 3 strong cities ( you have 2 for sure already, Berlin and Nidaros. Munich also if handled properly) You could also shoot for space.

 

[josh4bs]

Thank you for the insight fellas. I got ahead of myself when I played this set. I have never done cottages/farms hence the questionable builds you noticed. Farms should be near water, cottages on land not connected to water?

When I play again, I will start back at the conclusion of the Viking rush (my last save).

No idea why I was building itza, that was less than smart.

I will redo and.go.slower with more of a plan and not get caught up with is game and try to.stop more frequently.

Thanks again...I really appreciate your time and effort helping me.

 

[shlks]

Aww, you can still switch the builds on chichen itza and the courthouse in the city screen as there's hardly any hammers spent on them yet. Still you're free to go ahead and try to improve your plays. I do the same thing sometimes. The game is still very winnable though and you're at a pivotal point in your empires development. (GA, civic changes)

 

[barbertje]

Thank you for the insight fellas. I got ahead of myself when I played this set. I have never done cottages/farms hence the questionable builds you noticed. Farms should be near water, cottages on land not connected to water?

You should make either cottage cities, who that run a lot of cottages, or cities that are mostly farmed, wich can be used for specialists, production or whipping/drafting.
You'll want some of both.

A cottage city should really only work resource tiles, cottage tiles and maybe a couple of hills to produce some necessary buildings. If there are no food resources, you might want to build a farm or 2 first for faster growth, wich you will eventually also cottage.
A good cottage city will have a large number of riverside tiles, for the commerce bonus. In any case you want to work the flood plains first, after hat riverside grassland, after that ordinary grassland, and finally riverside plains and ordinary plains.

A food city will work farms and hills or specialists. The farms need to be lakeside or riverside. You'll want to work the same tiles first as with cottage cities.
With mines you also want grass and riverside first.

Sometimes you have cities that can only work cottages, because you can't have farms, or you need to cottage everything to fend of a financial collapse, but that's clearly not the case here.

 

[vranasm]

good map for SSE imo.

played a shadow up to 1 AD

Spoiler :

I think i got 10 cities, now at 700 AD I have 22 whole island settled finally.

built tons of wonders

Spoiler :

missed out on MoM later around 400 AD which made me pretty sad.

Got CS around 25 BC which is imo good.

 

[shlks]

Playing my first shadow game now.

I went into extensive detail for early game.

2000 BC

Spoiler :

---
Two-thousand years already?! Normal speed goes fast.

I build worker first and tech AH first to improve cows. We find horses on western edge of capitol BFC and pasturizes them next while building a warrior to get to size 2. My second tech choice, the wheel. I start building roads from the horses through the forests next to rivers. I had built a second worker sometime when teching the wheel instead of warriors or barracks I felt were unnecessary. I was teching bronze working as I built a chariot and roaded the forest.

Spoiler :

Once bronze working finishes I decide to revolt to slavery and start chopping forests. I chop a couple forests staggering the timing so I don't overflow past any caps and get instant chariots. I send three down whenever their ready. The lead one got some exp off animals... ( a chariot hunts animals?..) They reach Ragnar's borders together 200 years later. It would have been better if I grouped at the NW corner so I could safely attack on the same turn...

Spoiler :

Three chariots was perhaps a gamble against a city hill archer but my loses included only one chariot once Ragnar was toast.

Back home I teched agriculture after BW for the wheat. Then mysticism for faster masonry... I was building a settler at Berlin, chopped one forest and whipped to overflow into another worker... I think I wasted the expansive bonus doing that. Built a road mostly in advance for my settler. This was meanwhile Nidaros was rebelling and built a quick worker being size four with 2 farmed corn.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

I was thinking of teching masonry but changed my mind in favor of pottery. I wanted to regrow my capitol so I decided to build a chariot over stonehedge for now. Not wanting to chop I build a road with the new working...

Spoiler :

That is Nidaros before I chop and whip for workers and granaries. I'm surprised it's not connected by trade route to Hamburg. I'm to have pottery soon and my plan is to install granaries into my cities quickly. I whip a worker in Nidaros, and chop a forest in Berlin and Nidaros for a granary. I put a farm on a floodplain in hamburg and it reached size 2 and I whip a granary there. We're working on goldmines and cottages in hamurg now while I chop a settler in Nidaros. Nidaros makes for a good settler/ worker pump.

Saved Game
View attachment 330450

 

[josh4bs]

Finally was able to return to Bismarck this morning and building up the dominant/Wonder founding/Cash-strapped civilization.

Have founded 6 cities now and have found out that maybe I expanded too quickly. I have founded 3 religions, and built countless wonders, but not the Itza.

Below are screenshots of the empire as we know it and my tech tree. The tech tree is bare on the cheap techs as I was concentrating on the advanced ones up to this point.

Tech tree:

I have stacked my workers and have tried to have at least 2 working together on the same project. So I am doing better in that regard, maybe.

Played up to 375BC, save is below, if you like...

Thanks.

 

[barbertje]

You're simply not making enough commerce or science. The possible sources of commerce are: cottages, commerce resources, such as goldmines, and specialists. You're not using either of them.

You don't have pottery. Pottery is not only needed for cottages, but also for granaries, wich should nearly always be the first build in new cities, to make them grow faster.

Berlin: there should be farms by now, the city should be larger, and running 2 scientists.
The next job after building the pyramids is nearly always growing while buillding a granary and a library. Of course the plains hills also need to be mined, so you can switch the scientists out when there is another wonder to build.

Frankfurt: The city was founded 1 turn ago, and you have two workers ready for the pigs. good.
It would have been even better if you could start with a granary (or a workboat) and not the library wich will produce only about 1 beaker.

Munich: this city was founded 28 turns ago, and it's still size 1?. Munich is obviously the best place to get commerce. To get the city to grow however, you can't start with improving the gold, you have to farm the flood plains. I would farm at least 3 flood plains here, and don't start working the gold until the city is size 4. Once you work 3 flood plains farms and 2 gold mines, the city will have a food surplus of 4 wich is a bit low, but it will pick up if you cottage the other flood plains. I would cottage everything once the city has grown to the happy cap.
(I cottage at least 1 city always for a bureacracy capital. You should start this early, so Munich has to be it)
If you do build a worker in Munich (wich you shouldn't) you can work the goldmine, because you get a 1 hammer bonus because of the expansive trait and also much more commerce. The city governer knows how to do this. If you change the tile assignments of a city yourself, you should
look at the hammer and commerce output of the city to see the results, and don't forget about it later
Don't build a farm on the plains forest. You can just chop this to get a faster granary. You shouldn't be working this tile until after you work all the floodplains, the gold, the grass and the grassland hill.

Hamburg: I think i would have built this 1 E, so it can work more land tiles and also get 2 grass tiles you can work. This city does not need a library. You should build your workers and settlers here, and not in Munich or Berlin.

Nidaros: This needs mines and not grassland farms. Mines will give more production when building workers and settlers.

Cologne: Building this before you have calendar is a big waste of money and of worker turns.

 

[josh4bs]

Thank you for the critique.

I know I have a lot to learn, and I thank you for sticking with this and sharing your advice. I will see if I can implement/remedy the situation on the next turnset I play.

Thank you, tremendously!

 

[The Oz-Man]

I wouldn't go for Civil Service just yet. Berlin is an okay Bureau cap and irrigation is nice, but you're going to have big-time economic problems until you get Currency. Let me put it this way: when I ran a shadow, I was about three tiers on the tech tree ahead of the other continent when I met them just because of building Wealth. It's extremely powerful and one of those paths to economic stability that a lot of low-level players neglect.

Pottery should be your next tech. Take Munich off the worker and have it build a Granary; it needs to grow so that it can work both of those gold mines along with the flood plains. I built a city in a similar site (1NW so as not to settle on flood plains), and it made an excellent Bureau capital.

I had a look at the save.

*Berlin wants scientists! Hire a few. You're running Representation, and you want an Academy ASAP.
* Munich's worker should not be farming the plains. That's lowest of low priority in a flood plains-filled city. Switching to Pottery right now is the best idea. Cottage the FP tiles first and worry about the crappy plains tile later.
* Nidaros needs a Courthouse and a ton of mines. It's a powerful production site for either pumping Workers/Settlers or building Wonders. If you plan to war late in the game with the other continent, you might consider building the Ironworks there; with State Property-powered watermills and workshops, it'll be an absolute beast.
* You're not taking advantage of Caste System--you're running no specialists at all. I wouldn't have switched to Caste System at all at this point; you still have too much that needs whipped (Courthouses, Granaries, etc.). It's worth going back a save if you have an auto-save. You didn't want CoL for CS; you wanted it for Courthouses. And those need whipped, especially for a non-Organized leader like Bismarck who doesn't get them for free.
* Cologne is a good city, but not right now--it needs too much (Calendar for the sugar, Iron Working to get the mines, etc.) You don't have any competition for it, and there are much better sites available.
* Speaking of which, plan on using Nidaros's Settler to get a city near the gems to the north of the city. Working those gems will pay the bills for that city, and with the nearby flood plains you should be able to get a good commerce city out of it.
* On the whole, though, I disagree with Civil Service as a tech target. In this situation I would grab Pottery quickly, then head to Currency (through Math since you're going to need Calendar soon), then run down the Aesthetics line. The Great Library is one of the game's best wonders, you're Industrious, and you have Marble--and you're (wisely) running Representation. Going Civil Service before Pottery almost never makes sense; you want the Bureaucracy civic to power up a cottage city. You're still going to want it, but not yet.
* Finally, take your Chariots off of the Explore function (click them and use the "wait until next turn" button to turn it off). You've basically explored the continent, so you want them posted near the borders to keep barb cities from popping up.

Those are my thoughts.

EDIT: One more thing: why on Earth did you tech Theocracy? You're not even running a state religion, and you have no military targets. I can't for the life of me figure that out.

 

[barbertje]

This is how for I was in 375 BC.

Berlin will whip the library the next turn, and then will build thre great library in 6 turns.
The library comes rather late, because I'm chasing all wonders, and Berlin has been busy.

Hamburg has built the colossus and the great lighthouse. I've settled the first prophet here to help with that. The city is working commerce at the moment because I want Calendar ASAP. I'm going to settle a lot of coastal cities soon that can get very good with only a little worker attention thanks to the colossus and the great lighthouse.

Nidaros, busy with wonders.

Uppsala, wel worth keeping. It can borrow a hill and a corn from Nidaros, and it has produced a settler for Cologne while Nidaros was busy with the temple of artemis.
I've just whipped a forge and will run 2 scientists and an engineer after this.

Munich has grown a bit faster than expected (also got +1 pop from hanging gardens),
so it's now working 3 unimproved tiles. I will whip a worker after the library completes to remedy this. Slavery is really nice for this kind of thing. Now that the city works all floodplains, regrowth will be quick. I'll probably settle great people here, to help with production of the palace, oxford etc.

Cologne is already size 3, and will work the first gold next turn.
This took only 9 turns (with help from the hanging gardens, and the chopped granary.)

View attachment AutoSave_BC-0375.CivBeyondSwordSave

I don't have currency yet, because 1 commerce/city isn't all that much, and there are much better things to build than wealth. Courthouses are still not needed as well.
If you knew any AI's currency would be essential for at least 2 commerce everywhere, and selling techs and resources and begging.

 

[josh4bs]

Ok...I have taken notes and am ready to fire the game up this morning. I have/had very little idea how to run cottages, that is why I am here. So thank you again for your input and guidance. It is much appreciated. This map works perfectly for learning how to develop an economy since I don't have to worry about other AI's yet.

I will start back at the 500 BC save and attempt to implement the changes that have been suggested.

Update coming soon.

One question....What is SSE?

 

[josh4bs]

Ok...started back at after the Vikings left town...

Only settled 1 additional city (Gems N of Nidaros). But I think I have made better use of the workers and the land that could be worked.

This is where we are at at 850 BC.

Overview of 3 cities

Nidaros and Hamburg

Berlin

Future city spots

I think the Gold city will be first...then Pigs...then W of Nidaros

Tech Tree:
Poly>Mono>Pot>Priest>Writing....Math is being researched now

Civics:
Rep/Slave/Organized Religion

Religion:
State Religion is Judaism

Great Prophet in Berlin...save for Golden Age??? or Settle in city?

Chariots are on border protection and in cities where needed

Better? Let me know.

 

[The Oz-Man]

SSE is Settled Specialist Economy. All specialists that aren't used for Golden Ages (or building an Academy) are immediately settled in the capital, as I recall.

Your cow/bronze city can grab a floodplains if you move it a little to the north. That site's kind of food-poor.

If you plan to stay Jewish, you might consider building the Jewish shrine in Nidaros. You can get upwards of 20 cities on this continent, and spreading Judaism around is a straightforward way to pay the bills.

VoiceOfUnreason likes to tell people to place a city wherever there's food. It's a good rule; a city with food can pay for itself (cottages, specialists, etc.). To that end, you might consider putting a city north of that fish near the floodplains on the eastern side of the continent.

Let Nidaros grow some when the Settler gets out. I see it's got a Granary, which is good--with two corns, it'll grow in no time.

What are you planning to get with the Oracle? Code of Laws would be valuable here.

Overall, you're a little leaner, but you don't have any techs you don't need, so I'd call it an improvement.

 

[josh4bs]

An improvement....I'll take it! lol

I think I will attempt to stay Jewish and run with that. Toyed with the idea of founding other religions, but I think if I stay Jewish and spread the word, that should suffice and I can use the beakers elsewhere instead of on religion.

CoL is what I am shooting for with the Oracle and acheived.

Built Munich at the gold site...and Cologne over on the coast where you suggested at the cow/bronze.

I think I should save settlers for now until IW, since there is a lot of jungle that would be in the way. Also, there isn't much worth settling, except for far south...I could be wrong though.

Concentrating on workers to get the cottages/farms going.

Math is being researched now...should fishing/sailing be next since I now have a coastal city. Sailing would benefit me by allowing river trading, eventhough I have the roads built for that already...

I've a library being built in Berlin to lead into The Great Library. Once the library is in, shouldn't I start to put scientists there and run Caste System?

save attached below...through 600 BC.

 

[Mylene]

Ugh..i hope you did not really use these tiles in Berlin
Never ever never stop working your good food. Dun be scared of unhappy citizens, they are production. Cottage should not exist, or worse...being used

With Pyras, settle food first. Great 2 fishis spot north, or Pigs + Crab.west with production tiles from Berlin that can be borrowed. Cologne was a very bad pick.
And i will pretend that worker east of Hamburg does not exist, or you really need a spanking ;-p

 

[The Oz-Man]

I've a library being built in Berlin to lead into The Great Library. Once the library is in, shouldn't I start to put scientists there and run Caste System?

You can, but like Mylene says, unhappy citizens are production. Look at how much land you still have to settle (how many Courthouses/Granaries/Settlers/Workers/garrisons/etc. you need to whip). Caste System can be a powerful civic in the right circumstances, but getting things built to sustain your economy is probably more important.

Question: are you building Workers first in your new cities? They're awfully small. That's a bad idea most of the time--you want to do it with your capital to start tile improvements, but workers take too long to build in a new city otherwise. Much better to start on a Monument (which you don't need), Granary, or some other important piece of infrastructure. In a pinch, a garrison can be a good first build, but with the Great Wall, you don't have to worry about it.

 

[josh4bs]

Duly noted. Will work on settling and improving the cities before Caste System...

 

[barbertje]

You still don't have your worker priorities straight. In Berlin, a non-riverside grassland and or the riverside plains are tiles that shouldn't be used, and therefore shouldn't be improved. After you connect the gems and the silver, the city can grow to size 10, so you should work more food now.

In Munich, you should start with improving some flood plains, and not the gold. (and you're improving a desert hill gold before a plains hill gold)

In Hamburg, you should improve the gems and the rest of the flood plains before cottaging a grassland tile.

In Nidaros, the farms you build over the trees will be nearly useless, since it has plenty of food. You should have never whipped this city while it had more grassland hills it could work.
Also do not build a settler at size 2 directly after whipping.

you still have to make a traderoute connection between munich and berlin. You miss a road on the northern gold.

I think oracling code of laws is a bad move.
- you don't need courthouses for quite some time
- You need to let your cities grow a lot more before caste system is useful.
- you already have a religion
- metalcasting is more expensive
- forges are very good for an industrial leader, and will give 2 happy.