Jotnar - Giant Civ for Fall from Heaven. Download Here.

[Arctic Circle]

The time have come for the merge with Fall Further. 2009 04 08

Below is a file with an 'assets' folder that you just copy/paste over the assets folder in Fall Further 050. Right now the clock is near two in the morning and I -might- have fumbled with something. But everything seems to be there.



I hope the Fall Further team can check it out, and merge it into next Fall Further version. They have my full permission to tweak anything they see fit to tweak. If outrageous changes needs done, pls PM me..

Use the zip file 'Fall Further w Jotnar' below.

Updates:
20090409 - There are some version issues, taking it down until its is fixed.











Welcome Now in (almost) 1.0 Version!!!

This is a giant civ for the Fall From Heaven mod.

Jotnar are the giant kin, an assortment of races that is held together by a common ancestry and traditions. They live centred around small family groups called 'Steaddings' or 'Homestaeds', not seldom attracting some odd kin to their dwellings. Hill giants, Trolls, Fiery giants, Tritons of the sea .. even the mightiest of them - the Titans - might fall in under their banners once they unraveled the mystery of immortality. Tightly held together, slow to bear offspring and to come to action, their pure size make them a force to be considered.

Discussion leading to this civ can be found in this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=275026

Unique features:
- Units with big base strength, high unit supply cost, and no mounted or archers. Many can move impassable terrain (aka mountains).
- Cities use only the first tier, or the thin cross. Many small cities.
- Focus on great persons and a special building that allows almost all Jotnar unit to hold the 'Spirit Guide' promotion, allowing for sharing of experience.





I want to give credits to:
- the artist wom made the marvellous images
- the skinners that made the sea-giant
- the Warhammer mod team,
- Ploeperpengel for Valten the Chosen of Sigmar,
- GarretSidzaka for Sir Loracaz,
- Mix for his Golden Warrior,
- Ploeperpengel for his Cyclops,
- White Rabbit for his wizards,
- To Tal without whom I'd never have gotten started or gotten anything done, thank you.
- and many others.

Please observe. That I am developing this modmod as an alpha version, beta version and a main first version 1.0. Those will pop up in the posts below this one. The first versions will be modular mods (please look at the modular mod thread for installation instructions), while version 1.0 will be extremly easy to install and perhaps even included in Fall Further.

Here are instructions for using a modular mod. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=264417.

I will make every effort to make this available to everyone, and everyone that tries it out is a joy and a blessing. Thank you.

 

[Arctic Circle]

FORGET ABOUT THIS ONE; GO USE THE BETA VERSION BELOW: ONE EASY COPY AND PAsTE TO INSTALL!!!

Jotnar Alpha - Modular mod only.

Ready to download!!!

Works together with Fall Further 033

Inside tip:
- Pls give suggestions on how to fix the culture area map and keep something similar - or more beautiful flag.
- Check out the city names and think a little.
- Remember that all cities can only use the first tier.

IMPORTANT:

You need to make a few small Python changes manually.

(1) To make all Jotnar cities start with the 'Staedding' building
File: CvEventManager.py
Method: onCityBuilt
Code:
if pPlayer.getLeaderType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('LEADER_JO1'):
city.setNumRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_JOT_STAEDDING'), 1)

(2) To make all -conqured- Jotnar cities start with the 'Staedding' building
File: CvEventManager.py
Method: onCityAcquiredAndKept
Code:
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pCity.getOwner())
if pPlayer.getLeaderType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('LEADER_JO1'):
pCity.setNumRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_JOT_STAEDDING'), 1)


Please give feedback, what needs to be changed? What could be changed? What is good, what is bad?

 

[Arctic Circle]

Jotnar BETA

Ready to download!!! Just copy and paste the folder.

Developed for Fall Further 040B on Fall from Heaven 2 032L. Tested with latest patches.

1. Copy the unzipped content of the folder (The zip file just below called Jotnar BETA copy-paste folder.zip) into your main mod folder and overwrite those files that are conflicting, it is most likely called:
/Program Files/Firaxis Games/Sid Meiers Civilization 4/Beyond the Sword/Mods/Fall Further/

2. Run the mod. Make sure to read about the civilization Jotnar in the Civilopedia.

3. Give me feedback on the forum..

OBSERVE: This is still a modular mod, it might not work on Vista or 64 based OS. Also if you have named your main gamefolder something else then
/Fall Further/ then you have to start the game once. Then open up your .ini file (with the same name as the mod folder) and change Modular loading to 1.

Changes since ALPHA:
- Countless bugs and flaws, including those mentioned in threads by our brave testers have been fixed.
- City graphics have been handled.
- Everything now downloadable, and pastable in one file. Adding Jotnar onto Fall from Heaven or Fall Further
is now a single step action.
- Jotnar cannot have any other Goverment civic except 'Traditions', which is a Jotnar-only civic.
- Jotnar do not have, and mostly will not have a world spell. But they have a unique wonder, the great wall.
That works similar to the one of vanilla civ.
- Jotnar have a habit of building things large-scale, therefore their windmills and watermills are rather amazing constructs.
Also observe that Jotnar cannot research Machinery.
- Jotnar Units are not built, a Jotnar base unit is spawned randomly with an average of once every twenty turns and with a maximum of two per staedding. Modified by Armageddon counter. This base unit can be upgraded similar to Grigori's adventurers to various Jotnar units. Notable is that Cyclop units are a dead-end and that Sea Serpents and Giant Tortoises still are buildable as per normal. Take very good care of your units, and build House of Ancestor early. A Jotnar base unit spawned in a city with House of the Ancestors gain the promotion Spirit Guide.

Civilopedia:
Jotnar are the giant kin, an assortment of races that is held together by a common ancestry and traditions. They live centred around small family groups called 'Steaddings' or 'Homestaeds', not seldom attracting some odd kin to their dwellings. Hill giants, Trolls, Fiery giants, Tritons of the sea .. even the mightiest of them - the Titans - might fall in under their banners once they unraveled the mystery of immortality. Tightly held together, slow to bear offspring and to come to action, their pure size make them a force to be considered.

STRATEGY: Cities will only use the first grid around it, instaed of two. This greatly influence the placement of cities. They can also never grow bigger then size ten, so aim for many small cities. The Goverment Civic 'Traditions' aid in this by reducing the maintnance cost for number of cities, the giant-kin are however so set in their ways that they cannot change their goverment civic - costing you some flexibility. Jotnar units are not built, they are born (exceptions are workers, settlers, thrall militia and some naval units). A rare and slow breed you are dependant on the emergence of new Jotnar Children and Adults, the citizens can then be upgraded into most units you need. Even settlers. And Jotnar Citizens can work the fields and break new roads while waiting to put them in use. They also slowly gains experience, so their time as Citizens are not wasted. The Jotnar can build a unique wonder after discovery of Code of Laws and Masonry that is called the Wall of the Covenant, and which holds the Barbarians at bay. A very useful wonder on maps with large landmass and active/agressive barbarians. To make sure that your units are not wasted (since you cannot massproduce them like other civilizations) build House of the Ancestors early in all cities, it gives your units the Spirit Guide promotion which gives some experience back to your other units when a unit dies.

RELIGION: Jotnar have a preference for Runes of Kilmorph, however they can function well with any other faith. Their Paladins and Eidolons are of 'Jotnar' size. Extra gold is however important, so make sure to aquire some extra commerse if you choose some religion aside from RoK.

WAR: While Jotnar often cannot produce a massive amount of units in a short time, often hindered by an average of 1 units each twenty turns even with an unlimited supply of gold, they -are- giants. Many of Jotnar units are a little stronger then their normal counterparts, they ignore terrain and can often cross even mountains that allow them to attack from unexpected directions. They also do not need bring siege-machines, because each giant in himself can tear down a wall or two. Even the Jotnar Workers can bombard cities. For the devious one, Jotnar have the Hill Giants, whom can be mass produced with Hidden Nationality, often making it hard for even other players to determine if they are your units or are the real thing. Beware of recon units however, since the Hill Giants are considered animal units and some recon units have a high bonus in combat, and can even subdue your giants in service of another.

 

[Arctic Circle]

Jotnar v 1.0 - reserved. Most likely adapted to the latest version of Fall Further. No more modular mod will be supported.

NOW IT IS HERE!! JOTNAR 1.0 (almost).

For Fall Further 043 patch F (which might still not work on Vista).

Instruction:
Download the file, and copy/replace its content (the asset folder) into your Fall Further 043 folder. Then go play.

Comments:
This is not the truly complete version, it lacks events, it lacks some spells for Tritons and Cyclops and a few more tweaks. However I really hope I can get some feedback on this one. And since it was put together in a brutal 5 hour crunch .. I have tested it .. but might have missed things.

Changes since beta:
Besides from all things I havn't written down..

- Spawning of Jotnar Citizens are modified in such a way that less and less Jotnar spawned as the Armageddon counter
rises, while more citizens per city are allowed. The giant race gives birth to less and less children.

- Jotnar cannot build City of a thousand slums wonder.

- Culture boost of +50 now working when Jotnar cities -should- grow from 10 --> 11. Jotnar cities are limited to max 10 in size.

- Jotnar now have access to a buildable melee class, Orc Conscripts when armageddon counter reaches 30+. Similar to Axemen yet a little cheaper and
causes no war unhappiness by dying.

- Egrass the Jotnar national hero is reduced to being a 2/6 --> 2/4 at the beginning of the game.

- The Sea-giant, Triton, now have subdue animals and subdue beasts to capture the creatures of the sea.

- All Jotnar units that truly are giants, now carry the promotion 'Giantkin'.

- Seriously turned down the rate of spawned giant citizens (special units that can be upgraded to various units OBS Jotnar cannot build most
units -only- promote them from the jotnar citizens), starting with a 3% per city and turn, and the chance diving steeply downwards as the armageddon
counter rises. A real incitament for Jotnar players to keep down the armageddon counter.

- Jotnar Giant units now age 50/seasoned 100/renowned 200/prominent 300/legendary and increases in strength & defence, the damage from the spellcasters also increase
in potency. Giantkin promotion required.

- New Jotnar Thrall unit graphics, Fixed/Changed Jotnar Berserkers, Archmages and Sea-giants.

- Added two new Leaders, one older Jotnar with more warlike features 'Father Kasghenal' (Financial, Aggressive) and a evil Troll half-breed 'Uxol' (Barbarian,
Arcane, Raiders). Mother Enningas has become Good Alignment - so the Jotnar now have a Good, a Neutral and an Evil leader.

- Nerfed the Jotnar max city size to 8 instaed of 10 and the Jotnar Staedding maintnance modifier to -10%.

- The Father is only Financial/Agressive

- Blocked Archers and all Religious Units except Druid.

- UU Mouth of divine unit, that can spread all religions and is never lost, but have a 6 turn wait on religion spread.

 

[Tarquelne]

Not certain when I'll give it a try, but downloaded!

 

[Ingvar]

Just downloaded the modmod - really nice.

Pasted the code for the Staedding building and somehow spaces got in - so starting over play testing So far no option for Lucian or weird birthrates came about again.

 

[Arctic Circle]

Fun to see some Alpha testers

If you notice some grave oddities, let me know and i'll compensate.

 

[Ingvar]

It's been a fun game - a lot of reloads in the very beginning because of Thrall Militia's deaths from almost everything that walks the Erebus

So far - (turn 468) - they are strong and can hold their own. However they can build the heroes for both Chislev and Dural.

Not sure if it's intended - but both captured Hill Giants and ones from the Pact wonder cannot be upgraded to Wielders of Arms - seems there are two kinds of Hill Giants. Since the Pact ones are usually pretty highly promoted by that time it would be nice to be able to upgrade them.

Do Speakers mature over time or do they need to gain experience from combat only?

 

[Arctic Circle]

It's been a fun game - a lot of reloads in the very beginning because of Thrall Militia's deaths from almost everything that walks the Erebus

So far - (turn 468) - they are strong and can hold their own. However they can build the heroes for both Chislev and Dural.

Not sure if it's intended - but both captured Hill Giants and ones from the Pact wonder cannot be upgraded to Wielders of Arms - seems there are two kinds of Hill Giants. Since the Pact ones are usually pretty highly promoted by that time it would be nice to be able to upgrade them.

Do Speakers mature over time or do they need to gain experience from combat only?

Thrall Militia is intended smallish units for defence only, with +50% city defence etc. You have 4/3 units buildable from turn 1 if you are willing to gamble. But the Militia are tiny little fellows aren't they?

Woa.. Chislev and Dural heroes? Interesting. I have no clue why that happen but it needs to be corrected. Possibly have to set them to NONE in the civinfo xml file. Note to self, FIX THAT. DONE.

I am not sure how to fix the upgrade thing. It is possible that I'd have to do that in Python, and make sure you get the Jotnar kind of Hillgiants and not the normal kind both at capture and with the wonder. There are two kind of Hillgiants for a reason. Note to self. EXAMINE THIS FOR V1.0.

Speakers and High Speakers are supposed to gain experience as a spellcaster with the appropriate level of Channeling, but 80% slower. Does that have the consequense that it seems like they in practice never gains xp? Note to self. ADJUST XP GAIN RATE. DONE

Thank you for the feedback.

 

[Broken Hawk]

How did you come up with the name Jotnar? What is the background lore on your new civ?

 

[Tarquelne]

Woa.. Chislev and Dural heroes? Interesting. I have no clue why that happen but it needs to be corrected. Possibly have to set them to NONE in the civinfo xml file.

Those might be the heroes I missed in the civinfo file, too.

I am not sure how to fix the upgrade thing. It is possible that I'd have to do that in Python, and make sure you get the Jotnar kind of Hillgiants and not the normal kind both at capture and with the wonder.

I think this would work and is XML-only: Make all kinds of Hill Giants upgradeable, but have the upgraded unit require "Traditions" in addition to its main tech.

I played a very, very short game (stopped because of a storm, not a bug). I like the hero quite a bit, and do like the civ's crowned flag.

I noticed the flag on the pedia "civilizations" page is a bit off and looks a lot like another civ's flag...

 

[GhostQ]

Hmm, Arctic Circle, one word of advice, I hope you won't mind. Don't leave any python changes to us players/testers. Try to make a playable download ready, imho that way you'll get much more testers.

 

[Ingvar]

Turn 612 and counting. I am able to build Kahd at Strength of Will, I am also shown an option to build Wyvern Guardian, but since there are no monasteries for them they are grayed out.

A suggestion - maybe Mage units could be Skald instead of Speaker. Would remove confusion from the Religious Speaker, and and Vala (literary for Volva) for High Speaker. Would kind of fit in line with Matriarchal society. What do you think?

Archmage units can be build instead of upgraded - intended?

Cosmetic: House of the anscestors probably should be "House of The Ancestors"
Cosmetic Art: Tritons fortify a bit weirdly with the Axe floating above their heads.

Will have more

 

[Arctic Circle]

How did you come up with the name Jotnar? What is the background lore on your new civ?

The short answer would be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jötunn

However the Jotnar are not flesh-eating barbarians, they are a loyal and peaceful people with strong traditions and a sort of communal memory that stretches all the way back to their ancestors. The mother and father of all giant kin. They live in small family groups where a single family dominates one town, or Staedding. I am also trying to make some consideration to D&D lore, whom Fall From Heaven originated from.

I will get to answering all other questions, as well as write up a more solid piece of background 'in-game' to read. Note to self, write more CIVIPEDIA for the Jotnar civilization for Beta.

 

[Arctic Circle]

Hmm, Arctic Circle, one word of advice, I hope you won't mind. Don't leave any python changes to us players/testers. Try to make a playable download ready, imho that way you'll get much more testers.

It would require one download for you that uses Fall From Heaven vanilla, and one for you that uses Fall Further. I will do that for Beta. Note to self, have one working download for Beta!

 

[Arctic Circle]

Turn 612 and counting. I am able to build Kahd at Strength of Will, I am also shown an option to build Wyvern Guardian, but since there are no monasteries for them they are grayed out.

A suggestion - maybe Mage units could be Skald instead of Speaker. Would remove confusion from the Religious Speaker, and and Vala (literary for Volva) for High Speaker. Would kind of fit in line with Matriarchal society. What do you think?

Archmage units can be build instead of upgraded - intended?

Cosmetic: House of the anscestors probably should be "House of The Ancestors"
Cosmetic Art: Tritons fortify a bit weirdly with the Axe floating above their heads.

Will have more

Note to self, block the Wyvern Guardian and Kahd units! DONE.

Note to self, rename the speakers to those very suitable names! DONE

Note to self, archmage should not be buildable!

Note to self, rename House of ancestors building! DONE

Note to self, examine the Triton art!

Thank you very much

 

[Arctic Circle]

Note to self, add cityname Ingvarstaed to city list. DONE.

 

[Ingvar]

Posted again below. Sorry.

 

[Arctic Circle]

An attempt at answering you. Thanks for the feedback, do not hesitate to come with suggestions. I will not hesitate in using those I like and discarding the one's I don't.

Spoiler :

One of the little guys felt adventurous enough to go into Lairs, meanwhile Homestaed was building the Father.

The Father?

Exploration is a must, but is rather tricky. I haven't figured out the wild troll - built one and it stayed pretty faithful - came to be level 18 or so Troll Elder later. But I was rather cautious to build more - if it turned it would be a vicious barb 4 attack unit near my borders. I got hunting early through a hut, so Troll Hunter (by the way maybe Hunter Troll? - as opposed to to a guy who hunts trolls?).

The Wild Troll have a chance to go berserk, and each such turn there is a % it wil turn barbarian. Using it as a scout you will in any case 'go barbarian' far away from home.

From that point it was building, learning and exploring.

How did you feel the balance worked when it came to total military production, and research?

End game was more of a exploration of units that can be built and building all sorts of things I wasn't supposed to be able to - fun nevertheless. Can't resist building archmages, heroes and dragons (well, wyverns).

And a lot of those are not supposed to be buildable ..

- The biggest "bug" I suppose is the ability to build almost all Fall Further other civs heroes and some unique units - I've seen the button for Professor and for Wyvern Guardian in particular.

This will be fixed..

- Graphic bugs - the already mentioned triton's axe floating - and High Speaker's rather weird twisted stance - looks like he's been... well... twisted.

Ditto..

Unit/Building req./upgrade confusion (not sure which are intended and which are not):
- High Speaker can be built directly without upgrading;
- Woodfather is not linked to any building
- Stonewardens can upgrade to Woodfather

Ditto

If it was possible in some way - it would be nice if the player started with Father or could build him right away like a 1 hammer cost, and Mother (settler) - since it's around them the Steads are made, and maybe a early recon animal - or a single Offspring. From that point Giant Offspring can be either built or it would be really interesting addition - spawn if Father is in the Homestaed for a period of turns. Offspring could be 3/3 with 1mv.

Father? Hmm.. confused.

The offspring can then go off to explore and help father to defend the Staed. As offspring gets more experienced they can start specializing - upgrade to worker, to warrior or heavy recon unit - 1mv. Also one could upgrade offspring after a number of turns to a new "Mother" - a new settler. Maybe it's possible to make a distinction of Jotnar Offspring Worker and Jotnar Worker - kids do not work as fast as grown giants.

Would be an interesting mechanic if none of the units of Jotnar other than animals (snakes & turtles) could be built - but rather upgraded from Offspring if they are of the Giant Race, and gained by a building if they are of a different kin - like Kahdi getting Thades - Giants would have the same building to spawn Wild Trolls, and later Hunter Trolls, or Tritons, and so on. So that the player can focus on growing his giants - taking care of each one, building staeds with care - with that approach you could even have an occasional Offspring with Hero spawn.

Each staed then would be a motley crew of one grown giant and some offspring. If a grown giant is in the staed (have no clue if it's possible to check with xml) for more than 10-20 turns - offspring shows up. Offspring will need to sit for a while - gaining free xp enough for movement or forest or hills and basic combat - until 10/17xp and then they are a true Giant - but with no specialization - like Grigori adventurers - they can be upgraded for some gold to reflect education to become Skalds, Hill Dwellers, Workers or Settlers. If this whole mechanic is possible Settlers can be a random 1/5 chance spawned instead of offspring. Once you get hunting or some other tech relating to meeting other kin - you then could make a building "Kin Fire" - that would spawn on some criteria all the other wild critters - that can be upgraded as techs go higher. Spawning would have to be rare - to reflect the standoffishness of Giant kin.

I'll keep it in mind and discuss it with my Wife.

You can tell that I am not too thrilled with Thralls Maybe they too have place somewhere - but more as multipurpose weakling unit - it could work, but slow, it could defend but not a lot, it could scout but not too far - unlike hardy man of Erebus - they are well protected by Giants and so are less adaptive. Maybe Giants can use the Slave mechanic but get a chance Thrall instead and they could be coming through the Kin Fire?

I think they'll stay the way they are

I would give all water units a cargo space of at the most 2. Can you imagine Four Giants riding a Triton? Two is enough for a new staed - a settler and a protector that would grow a family.

Agreed

Hidden Nationality promo is really nice for harrassing neighbors - but it also is tough when AI is going in heaps for your one and only protection. Maybe give them a choice to "Go Wild" - a spell that would add HN and Crazed promo - it would be a gamble - you could get experience and get adventures, and move faster, but you could also loose the unit.

Capturing Hill Giants is another intersting thing to look at - maybe have a spell that would only work on Hill Giants - Father could go up to one and have a chance of persuading him to join the civilized life of Staed. That could also be useful if "Go Wild" is there - there's always some chance of getting that wild Giant back. Same could apply for Sea Snakes and Giant Turtles - if they come to the shore Father could get them.

Can't you just click the ability that removes hidden nationality if/when its a problem?

Not quite sure how to go about it all - but it sure was fun thinking it up. I hope you do not mind

Absolutly not

Oh, and by far the two best units in the civ are The Father and Troll Elder - got quite attached to those two

Are we still talking about the Woodfather?

Note to self, remove all non-jotnar units from the jotnar...DONE

Note to self, woodfather should require grove. DONE

Note to self, re-evaluate graphics for Troll and High-speaker.

Note to self, reduce all sea-units to cargo 2. DONE.

 

[Ingvar]

I am all sorts of new to the forum It just so happens that your thread is the one with my mess - my apologies.

Updated version of the text - didn't let me edit the other one for some reason - maybe there's a limit on editing a message.

Hopefully will explain more:

Game ramblings in the spoiler.

Spoiler :

My first game with giants is almost to a close. I used Creation huge map, raging barbs, living world, wildlands, and 10 or 11 rivals. The Thrall were scouting the nearby area, finding Barbatos in the nearby valley, Hippus and Bannor were the closest neighbors. One of the little guys felt adventurous enough to go into Lairs, meanwhile Homestaed was building the Father. Got lucky on techs from huts and was well ahead in the early game.

Thrall get killed really easily - in cities or outside - animals, warriors - I think only scouts pass them up. But once the Founder is built - around turn 20-30 - things start to get better.

Exploration is a must, but is rather tricky. I haven't figured out the wild troll - built one and it stayed pretty faithful - came to be level 18 or so Troll Elder later. But I was rather cautious to build more - if it turned it would be a vicious barb 4 attack unit near my borders. I got hunting early through a hut, so Troll Hunter (by the way maybe Hunter Troll? - as opposed to to a guy who hunts trolls?).

The first war started with Bannor, with three staeds in existance. Thankfully they only had access to one others were protected by mountains - moved Father there and he helped out until Homestaed built the Pact wonder. From that point it was building, learning and exploring.

The whole south side of the map got conquered by barbs with Orthus - Elohim, Illians, and on and on. Bannor got split in two with Minister Kuon, and then original Bannor conquered by Hippus. Kuriotites wiped out the clown folk. So it was Kuriotites, Hippus, Minister Kuon and Giants for pretty much all the game. By the time I got south there were animals and barb Champions running the show.

Mid-game was helped amazingly by the Thousand Slums wonder in the capital - i had one GE standing by for a wonder just in case and that fit the bill just right - large cross for home city makes for rapid advancement.

End game was more of a exploration of units that can be built and building all sorts of things I wasn't supposed to be able to - fun nevertheless. Can't resist building archmages, heroes and dragons (well, wyverns).

- The biggest "bug" I suppose is the ability to build almost all Fall Further other civs heroes and some unique units - I've seen the button for Professor and for Wyvern Guardian in particular.

- Graphic bugs - the already mentioned triton's axe floating - and High Speaker's rather weird twisted stance - looks like he's been... well... twisted.

Unit/Building req./upgrade confusion (not sure which are intended and which are not):
- High Speaker can be built directly without upgrading;
- Woodfather is not linked to any building
- Stonewardens can upgrade to Woodfather

Speakers are a bit weak by the time they show up to gain xp by combat, and almost do not get XP by sitting there.

Ideas and crazy rambling below:

Spoiler :

Basically, I viewed the Jotnar as growing of Giants, as they grow they attract other kinds for protection and profit.

If it was possible in some way - it would be nice if the player started with Founder, Mother (a Settler) and Offspring, Mother stays in the staed since it's around them the Steads are made. From that point Giant Offspring can be either built or it would be really interesting addition - spawn if the Founder or a grown giant is in the Homestaed for a period of turns - probably rather long - 10-20 turns if not longer. Offspring could be 2/3 with 1mv.

The offspring can then go off to explore and help Founder/grown Giant to defend the Staed. As offspring gets more experienced they can start specializing - upgrade to Jotnar Worker, Hill Dweller (Hill Giant), Skald or Settler. You could also give random promos to offspring - like arcane, mobility - just one to show what younglings are good at - it would make the player think more about what to upgrade the Offspring to. I think Thades do that already. So you could borrow that mechanic - the tricky part would be to make sure that the grown Giant stays in Staed to grow Offspring.

Other units could be gained by a building if they are of a different kin - like Kahdi getting Thades - Giants would have the same building to spawn Wild Trolls, and later Hunter Trolls, or Tritons, and so on. So that the player can focus on growing his giants - taking care of each one, building staeds with care - with that approach you could even have an occasional Offspring with Hero spawn.

Each staed then would be a motley crew of one grown giant and some offspring. If a grown giant is in the staed (have no clue if it's possible to check with xml) for more than 10-20 turns - offspring shows up. Offspring will need to sit for a while - gaining free xp enough for movement or forest or hills and basic combat - until 10/17xp and then they are a true Giant - but with no specialization - like Grigori adventurers - they can be upgraded for some gold to reflect education to become Skalds, Hill Dwellers, Workers or Settlers. If this whole mechanic is possible Settlers can be a random 1/5 chance spawned instead of offspring. Once you get hunting or some other tech relating to meeting other kin - you then could make a building "Kin Fire" - that would spawn on some criteria all the other wild critters - that can be upgraded as techs go higher. Spawning would have to be rare - to reflect the standoffishness of Giant kin.

You can tell that I am not too thrilled with Thralls Maybe they too have place somewhere - but more as multipurpose weakling unit - it could work, but slow, it could defend but not a lot, it could scout but not too far - unlike hardy man of Erebus - they are well protected by Giants and so are less adaptive. Maybe Giants can use the Slave mechanic but get a chance Thrall instead and they could be coming through the Kin Fire?

I would give all water units a cargo space of at the most 2. Can you imagine Four Giants riding a Triton? Two is enough for a new staed - a settler and a protector that would grow a family. Also, "Go Wild" spell would be good - rather then be a target for every AI - have it more of a choice.

Hidden Nationality promo is really nice for harrassing neighbors - but it also is tough when AI is going in heaps for your one and only protection. Maybe give them a choice to "Go Wild" - a spell that would add HN and Crazed promo - it would be a gamble - you could get experience and get adventures, and move faster, but you could also loose the unit.

Capturing Hill Giants is another intersting thing to look at - maybe have a spell that would only work on Hill Giants - Founder could go up to one and have a chance of persuading him to join the civilized life of Staed. That could also be useful if "Go Wild" is there - there's always some chance of getting that wild Giant back. Same could apply for Sea Snakes and Giant Turtles - if they come to the shore Founder could get them.

Arcane units - in Norse cultural history - the little that I know of it - most magicians were women, with exceptions of Skalds(bards) and shamans - which were rarer but there. Most gifted Volva were women and no decision was made without consulting them. So maybe higher up arcane units are distinctly women, and Skalds (mages/shamans) can be with a graphic where you cannot determine who they are - upgradable to either Woodfather or Vala.

Mounted - not needed as you can get plenty of elephants.

Archery/Siege - replaced by bombardment of cities. Would be cool to have something along the lines of stone throwing at units - a ranged attack if you have marble resource.

I just went back and read the original thread - I see that you were thinking along the same lines on younglings.

Not quite sure how to go about it all - but it sure was fun thinking it up. I hope you do not mind

Oh, and by far the two best units in the civ are Egrass The Founder and Troll Elder - got quite attached to those two - they look great and perform well

Thanks for great time playing