Jotnar Strategies?

I think StW is a set cost, not a subtraction, so yeah, 1.5. I could be completely wrong, but I seem to remember it being mentioned.
 
That was me who mentioned that back in 1.12, and Valkrionn said it needed to be changed. I don't know if it was, though.
 
Just played a quick game to check, verified Jotnar + StW = 1.5 Food/Pop
 
nutranurse said:
Yeah, I just finished a cheese game (world builder, quick, was testing something) with Hephaestus. I just built a TON of thrall militias, gave them mithral, and swarmed like no other.
Click to expand...


Hrrrm. Thrall militia should be defensive only. I will fix that.
 
Oh, no, no. You have it so that they are defensive only (I think). I did some editing of their units to test out that strategy and, well, it's rather cheap as I predicted!

edit:

However, I have to ask, how does the game spawn new Jotnar? In most of my recent games I have had a severe lack of them being born, meaning I have to rely on Wild Trolls and their upgrades while having a few truly awesome Giants leading those armies.
 
nutranurse said:
Oh, no, no. You have it so that they are defensive only (I think). I did some editing of their units to test out that strategy and, well, it's rather cheap as I predicted!

edit:

However, I have to ask, how does the game spawn new Jotnar? In most of my recent games I have had a severe lack of them being born, meaning I have to rely on Wild Trolls and their upgrades while having a few truly awesome Giants leading those armies.
Click to expand...

Well, the current equation is this:

Code: 
if gc.getPlayer(iPlayer).getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_JOTNAR'):

			iGiantKinPromotion= gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_JOT_GIANTKIN')
			iTrollKinPromotion= gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_TROLLKIN')
			iCurrentNumberOfGiants = 0

			for pUnit in PyPlayer(iPlayer).getUnitList():
				if pUnit.isHasPromotion(iGiantKinPromotion) or pUnit.isHasPromotion(iTrollKinPromotion):
					iCurrentNumberOfGiants += 1

			iMaxGiants = 5 + (5 * pPlayer.countNumBuildings(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_JOT_STAEDDING')))

			iGiantSpawnChance = 7 * (iMaxGiants - iCurrentNumberOfGiants)

			if CyGame().getGameSpeedType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('GAMESPEED_QUICK'):
				iGiantSpawnChance *= 1.5
			if CyGame().getGameSpeedType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('GAMESPEED_EPIC'):
				iGiantSpawnChance /= 1.5
			if CyGame().getGameSpeedType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('GAMESPEED_MARATHON'):
				iGiantSpawnChance /= 3

			if CyGame().getSorenRandNum(1000, "Giants born") < iGiantSpawnChance:
				iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_JOT_ADULT')
				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(iUnit, pPlot.getX(), pPlot.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_NORTH)
				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,CyTranslator().getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_GIANT_BORN",()),'AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,gc.getUnitInfo(newUnit.getUnitType()).getButton(),ColorTypes(8),pCity.getX(),pCity.getY(),True,True)
				if pCity.getNumBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_JOT_HOUSE_OF_THE_ANCESTORS')) > 0:
					newUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_SPIRIT_GUIDE'), True)


Which appears to be the latest python from FF, not my altered python. Which explains why your spawn rate is terrible. Will fix.
 
yep.. I understand things a bit more.. if the trolls are counted in the giantkin numbers it would shunt the giantkin appearance odds !!!

It seems that early game, getting jotnar citizen almost every growth of the city, and only just after growth, was a fluke .. or not ?


I've got 2 questions :
-I read something about jotnar able to settle the forts... and thus not needing settlers... I couldn't make it work ... Hoax ? former version ? my stupidity ?
-I read again and again, even in civilopedia that the jotnar aims for many small settlement limited to the 1st ring...
BUT : it seems they have 3 rings !!!! and the palace is thus that if city-distance-maintenance is void ... the maintenance for the number of city is upped by 400% !!
once again : is it the former version, the civilopédia text being not-updated ? my stupidity for mixing things ? or my version that is not up to date ?
If I got the good version, what is the use for the maintenance réduction of the season palaces ?

last :
it is supposed to be like that :
"Jotnar can no longer build or upgrade Workers, instead rely on Adults for the main workforce. All units Adults upgrade to are able to serve as workers if needed."

But my only gothi cannot do any worker work.
 
Calavente said:
yep.. I understand things a bit more.. if the trolls are counted in the giantkin numbers it would shunt the giantkin appearance odds !!!

It seems that early game, getting jotnar citizen almost every growth of the city, and only just after growth, was a fluke .. or not ?


I've got 2 questions :
-I read something about jotnar able to settle the forts... and thus not needing settlers... I couldn't make it work ... Hoax ? former version ? my stupidity ?
-I read again and again, even in civilopedia that the jotnar aims for many small settlement limited to the 1st ring...
BUT : it seems they have 3 rings !!!! and the palace is thus that if city-distance-maintenance is void ... the maintenance for the number of city is upped by 400% !!
once again : is it the former version, the civilopédia text being not-updated ? my stupidity for mixing things ? or my version that is not up to date ?
If I got the good version, what is the use for the maintenance réduction of the season palaces ?
Click to expand...

Yeah, Trolls should NOT count in RIFE. I will fix.

1. You need to be level...7? (I need to look at the XML file). The spell will become available to your FC then if you've researched Masonry.
2. All changes in RIFE. Small number of 3 ring cities is the new atandard.
3. The "palaces" don't reduce maintenance for the Jotnar. They do other, more interesting things.
 
How can we build the 4 "season palaces" for jotnar ?
1 city per season palace + capitol.. I would need 5 huge expensive cities !

Any way to have multiples palaces in 1 city ?
 
It took me a while, but it works like this: You make forts. Once a Herredcarl (the weird Fort Commander replacement without Fort Commander upgrades) reaches level 7, you can upgrade it for 100 gold into a city, transforming the Herredcarl into a Hurler (higher defense, inferior ranged attack) in the process.

Your cities are expensive but maintenance is much more manageable then, say, a straight-up gold penalty. New cities build Courthouses, Markets, Gambling Houses, and a Palace as your situation allows.

Aside from the 100-gold cost and the high maintenance the Jotnar are more or less as gold dependent as the Khazad, so prepare to work hard at economy. One thing to keep in mind is that most of the Kin promotions, despite their attractiveness, are things you really need to make sure you can afford before you pick them up.

  • Stormkin is the one that (appropriately located at Trade) really pays for itself: it gives your 'Carls more range to farm barbs from, ensuring faster XP trickle, and it allows the Windtalker spell for your new city defender, which gives back a little of your gold. It also goes great with your siege, especially if you make them flying.
  • Woodkin devastates the AI because they don't understand what to do about it, and serves as a superior Woodsman II (because your trolls already outspeed Woodsman II Recon Units...in ALL terrain...and can cross mountains) but it's not really necessary, your trolls are already terrifying.
  • Seakin lets you win at the ocean, but the OO has had that nailed down forever anyway, and Krakens with Tsunami backup are still no joke.
  • Firekin is meh - orcs tank fire damage, the Scorch is too slow to beat just building Sun nodes if you need it (and way too slow for offensive use), and deserts aren't where you want your trolls hanging out for extended periods of time anyway. Mirage is interesting, but a smart human player has scouts for your Woodkin-trolls already and the AI shouldn't be touching your workers anyway.
  • Stonekin sounds like The Worker Promotion - workrate and defensive bonus! But you've got hordes of thrall militia helping workrate already, and your Citizens/Huscarls are tough enough to tank barbs without the promotion and not tough enough to deal with civ attack even with it.

Hunting should be your first tech without exception, preferably before your second troll is built. Spam trolls early, explore with extreme aggression, feed them on skeletons and orcs/goblins/frostlings while saving at least some of the wildlife for later capture, especially bears since they don't need a Carnival.

Once you've picked out three to five ideal city sites you need to fort them - NOW. The painful way is escorted Citizen teams who are going to be working without Construction for quite some time even if you rush it (which you need to, if you do it this way). The infinitely superior way is to start a war with your nearest neighbor, slaughtering his feeble early military with your absurdly powerful trolls (if you rush tracking this is a gamebreaker) but keeping him alive so you can farm Great Commanders and Jotnar-upgradeable slaves (the fastest way by far to get Citizens - does not work on the Clan, though, they just yield Orcish and Goblinoid Thralls). Great Commanders should then start forting all the ideal locations immediately, and by turn 150 you can have 5+ perfect cities if you're quick and good with economics.

Every path yields extremely good results for you. You can just stick with trolls if you like, they're very strong, incredibly mobile, get bonuses against everything found outside of a culture boundary...your melee line is berserk, your arcane line can build the Tower of Elements off the extremely beneficial Wonders you want to construct anyway and thus has easy access to whatever elements you prefer, your divine line is AMAZING despite not getting priests or religious heroes...

Your religion choice is important. There is a lot of pressure on you to pick ONE OF RoK, Order, or AV for their assorted benefits - you need a lot of gold income and Dwarven Mines, a way to deal with your massive maintenance costs directly, or at least massive city growth to compensate. A neat trick is to found RoK for the Holy City, build yourself as many Dwarven Mines as you can while you tech, then go with either Order or AV (I like Order, as I like being Good and Hell Terrain is really rough on your ideal cities) and just spread RoK everywhere you can. Trade the tech cheap or give it away, even.
 
Hmmm...is the general consensus that Trolls are OP?

They've been through many permutations...I have no problem tweaking them.

Any other feedback on the kin promotions? I can reduce or eliminate the delay on their terraforming spells...not an issue. Anybody using Frostkin?
 
Trolls are OP because animals are OP (apparently you still didn't work out all their bugs.) Hold off on modifying trolls themselves till that's taken care of.
 
well... woodkin-seakin is great to avoid your lvl 7-8 troll going feral.. and to allow subdue animal
...
maybe I'll go for the next game with your fort construction spreading !!
 
Really, Verm, the Jotnar are terribly OP as a whole. The only thing keeping me down is the slow birth rate for my giants, but even that can be fixed with the trolls.

Yes, I'd say nerf the trolls JUST A LITTLE, to make it so that they cannot be a viable backbone to your army. They should serve their purpose as hidden defenders when in the forests/skirmishers when taking on armies. Maybe a -% to their city attack (like how most recon units have) and something else?

As for the giant birth rate, I would just say up it -a little-. Also try to make it so that you cannot convert human slaves into Giant kin. Huge amounts of cheese there.
 
I'd actually suggest blocking Reavers and Freebooters from having access to mounted equipment. For one, it doesn't make much sense (What do they do? Eat the blessed horses?) and two, they don't really need the boost.
 
Aside from the bonus damage on Egrass, Frostkin seems to me a little pointless. You're already hurting for food, MAKING tundra is usually exactly the opposite of what you want to do, unless I've missed some Tundra-related bonus the Jotnar get. Switching Mulcarn's Blessing for Slow might be a fix.

Noticed a bug where a Giant Spider (upgraded to Sword via Mucro - are non-Archos civs supposed to be able to do that?) I'd caught could keep buying Kindred/Kin/Kindred/Kin promotions. Every time I picked a Kin promotion, it was able to repurchase Kindred, and thus a new Kin promotion. It was under Hidden Nationality, which might have had something to do with it.

Possible fix for Trolls could be to drop their movespeed down to normal. They already outrun pretty much everything by dint of ignoring terrain, and in case of Sabretooth they can always climb the nearest mountain.

I thought the Jotnar-slave thing was weird, but I didn't realize it was a bug. It's been, uh, my primary source of Citizens. :mischief: I can't comment on the spawn rate, since I don't actually spawn more then one or two Citizens before I'm at war, which usually yields around 6-12 Jotnar-slaves, which is the end for spawning.
 
Well, I play on marathon exclusively so when I spawn 3 citizens in the first 300 turns I consider myself blessed.
 
Viatos said:
Aside from the bonus damage on Egrass, Frostkin seems to me a little pointless. You're already hurting for food, MAKING tundra is usually exactly the opposite of what you want to do, unless I've missed some Tundra-related bonus the Jotnar get. Switching Mulcarn's Blessing for Slow might be a fix.

Noticed a bug where a Giant Spider (upgraded to Sword via Mucro - are non-Archos civs supposed to be able to do that?) I'd caught could keep buying Kindred/Kin/Kindred/Kin promotions. Every time I picked a Kin promotion, it was able to repurchase Kindred, and thus a new Kin promotion. It was under Hidden Nationality, which might have had something to do with it.

Possible fix for Trolls could be to drop their movespeed down to normal. They already outrun pretty much everything by dint of ignoring terrain, and in case of Sabretooth they can always climb the nearest mountain.

I thought the Jotnar-slave thing was weird, but I didn't realize it was a bug. It's been, uh, my primary source of Citizens. :mischief: I can't comment on the spawn rate, since I don't actually spawn more then one or two Citizens before I'm at war, which usually yields around 6-12 Jotnar-slaves, which is the end for spawning.
Click to expand...



The Jotnar actually do get a food bonus on Tundra...or they should. I'll recheck. My usual strategy with Frostkin is FOL+yurts.

Troll speed can be dropped. It woudl go back up to 2 at Hunting in any case...that is probably fine.

Spider thing is bizarre. I will check it.
 
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