Journal of a random game.

[killercane]

Whats up with the trio of cities norwitch liverpool and warwick all crowding around the barren frost land?

In the post above I noted that a barb camp sprang up forcing me to settle liverpool in its spot; Norwich, founded later, was put on tundra for the increased food and production in the city square. Note that its growth potential is quite limited, but I need a city there anyhow, once it gets a harbor and aqueduct it will help the science quite a bit.

You mean if your able to take it from the civ who gets it?

Yes if my strategy involved domination or 100k. Here I really dont think it would matter where it is built if a person zooms to education (thereby negating its effects). Only the Aztecs are easily accessible for my military.

Its a interesting strategy, My game has been more compact, lots of land improvement ..less expansion. Which has been a big problem under republic. From having so many workers my upkeeps been like 26 gold a turn. Yet every ones been needed improving tiles that are currently worked or soon to be worked.

Well if you look at Bede's game and compare it with mine, his capitol is size 8. That allows him to support more units, and gives him extra uncorrupted gold for scientific matters. Mine is size 4 and building a settler; I do not have the unit support Bede has, but soon with growth my empire hopefully will be able to support everyone and I will really be able to push science more. I do run the significant risk of the militaristic Aztecs declaring on me, but I havent aggressively settled next to their towns, I have an embassy, have given in to all demands, and have traded with them frequently. Bede's empire would be able to respond more quickly to an Aztec threat IMHO. Neither game is the "better" choice or game, those are just two different strategies that both work using the curragh-republic slingshot-settle coastal strategies we have been discussing.

I disbanded quite a few regular warriors to help with support costs.

Edit: Note that Bede has a number of warriors in his picture eating up support costs. Why? It is because iron is available, and his warriors are all veteran, which would equal veteran swords for a clash with the Aztecs, whether they declare or you declare. It makes good sense to keep those vets around for an instant army when you decide/are forced to go to war, assuming the cash to upgrade.

 

[TruePurple]

Your city placement is quite crowded with 2 or even 1 square spacing. I might take OCP too far but thats so extreme the other way. Do you plan to pull up some of those cities latter?

As far as maximizing land tiles, I suppose, though if my city doesn't get past 6 it wont matter to me, maybe you as crowded as you are. Sea tiles aren't so bad either once you have harbor. And the whale bonus isn't something to sneeze at. Early on it means a nice developed tile with no work. Latter on it means a 3 food tile that also produces a shield and 3 gold.

 

[killercane]

For the most part the cities are CxxC spacing, a pretty standard spacing scheme. Have you read the Gotm/Cotm threads? Much of the things discussed here can be gleaned from perusing through the spoilers posted there, especially with Cotm 14 which was England.

 

[TruePurple]

Would you please provide me a link to that thread?

I'm going to try a new starting stratagy. Planning cities in more or less OCP spots (with occasional variations according to terrain features) but placing temporary middle cities who can do developed tile trading and extend domain early on.

Besides maybe a granary and just possible a barracks in 1 or 2 (then again, they could create catapules in the settler spacing), these cities will never see city improvements and will be disbanded latter game. What do you guys think of the idea? Bad idea? Someone already thought of it?

 

[Turner]

Here's one.
And Another.
Still Another.

Go to the Strategy and Tips subforum, or General Discussion, and search for 'city placement'.

 

[TruePurple]

@turner
Thank you for the links. Already read the last one and other such posts. I was asking killercane about the threads he mentioned.

@killercane Its one tactic, but straight CxxC with the occasional CxC I doubt is what most people use. Too tight for me. I enjoy the latter game too which a CxxC doesn't allow very well for.

What do you think of the tactic of temp cities that I mentioned?

 

[Bede]

We are now seeing stylistic differences come into play. killer's example does a good job of showing what can be done by spawing settlers everywhere rather than in a settler farm. I can see from his screenshot that he managed to claim the horses to the west.

On the whole issue of city placement, forget about so-called OCP. It is a snare and a delusion. Unless you are planning a milkrun type of finish, intensive development is the way to build. Build no further apart then CxxC and use every field available from the beginning. Going any wider than that costs way too much commerce, food and shieds in the early going.

Note that I didn't make a fetish of the CxxC layout as York needed the river and Nottingham the wheat bit I certainly would not have stretched beyond CxxxC

The way I look at it is if you need culture to keep the borders closed than the towns are too far apart. You have to remember that cultural buildings like temples cost a bunch over time, not to mention the shield cost. You can get two settlers and two more towns for the shield cost of a cultural building. That translates directly into unit support cost advantage and more commerce right from the git go.

The first thought I had when I looked at your 370BC save is which AI did your urban planning for you. That city layout is straight from the AI playbook.

killer was also right when he pointed out the warrior garrisons sitting there eating their heads off. I delayed connecting the iron for a long time and only did it after the Aztecs declared on me because I was starting to push their borders with new towns and they had nowhere to go. Connected the iron, mass ugraded warriors and brought them to their knees very quickly. Only then did I get the horses as I took them from the Aztecs.

My two towns in the north were planted as they were because the coastal one was intended as a fishing city and the inland one was going to get the growth from the surrounding grasslands and fruit farms (once the jungles were cut but which didn't need to happen for a while yet) and eventually work the desert tiles for shields after the government change.

York was planted where it was because I will get the BG shield back when the town grows to 7 and it wasn't short shields anyway as it could use the plains and also share the BGs north of London, not to mention the sugar, not connected or mined yet but I was getting the shields I needed without it.

 

[TruePurple]

Going any wider than (CxxxC) costs way too much commerce, food and shieds in the early going.

How does it cost you any food, commerce, or shields to do CxxxC? Because it takes longer to develop city tiles?

 

[Tribute]

Yes, of course that is it! That is the problem!

 

[Bede]

How does it cost you any food, commerce, or shields to do CxxxC? Because it takes longer to develop city tiles?

Actually it developing the fields so much working them. You can have two pop12 towns in the same space as a single pop 20 and you can have those 24 citizens hard at work before hospitals. It also takes less time to grow 2 cities to pop12 than to grow one to pop20 if you grow naturally.

 

[TruePurple]

Well It will cripple latter stages of the game somewhat and I do like playing to latter years. no one has yet commented on my idea of temporary towns... well?

Also developing doesn't matter when it comes to sea tiles so giving those cities more room wouldn't be too bad I'd think (except sea farers do get the bonus 1 commerce).

Heres civassist pic of my placed and planned cities.
A mix of 2, 3, and 4 spacing (only a little bit of 4) Based on terrain features. That is, trying to place towns on rivers/by fresh water, and/or commerce bonus resource, trying to avoid placing towns on shield/food bonus resources. Trying to maximize use of coast/whale/fish coast tiles.

The very top one is especially interesting. Lots of bonus resources (even tobacco under the city) plus river. (I like to name it paradise valley)

 

[Bede]

Well It will cripple latter stages of the game somewhat and I do like playing to latter years. no one has yet commented on my idea of temporary towns... well?

Temporary towns are an okay strategy but not optimal and should really only be used in extremis. Settlers cost way too much in both shields, food and lost commerce (for a couple of turns anyway) to use them that way.

And the point we all are trying to get across here is that adopting placement plans that cripple the early stages of development mean that you won't get to those latter stages at all, as you are demonstrating in the struggles you are having right now.

A mix of 2, 3, and 4 spacing (only a little bit of 4) Based on terrain features. That is, trying to place towns on rivers/by fresh water, and/or commerce bonus resource, trying to avoid placing towns on shield/food bonus resources. Trying to maximize use of coast/whale/fish coast tiles.

Looks much better.

Don't worry about shield bonuses too much as you will get them back at pop7.

 

[TruePurple]

You mean when a city reaches pop 7 it gets bonus shield (but still not base, like hills?) on the square it sites on? Thats not the case of food though?

Ok, I just finished code of law.. I got a SGL! What should I do with it? With some tech trading I could use it to make a temple of Artemus which puts temples in all your cities, do those cities produce culture like they have temples in them? Does oracle double the culture output of temples? I could beat all the AI to pyramid, there's allot of them working on the pyramid right now. A granary in every city will help alot with making temp cities as well as fast general expansion.(only 4 towns now, one was a lucky goody hut settler) Should I hold it for now for some latter wonder? Which one? Should I put the wonder in a town other then my cap for the culture? Should I hold onto it and use it to boost science when I enter a golden age?

So many choices, help! (well at least their good choices )

As far as temp towns, the idea is that they would produce their own settlers and pay back the cost to produce them.

 

[shumble]

Interesting comments. I play 'vanilla' so some of these resources and wonders are new to me. I've seen a lot of discussion about the slingshot to Republic and the SGL.

In 'vanilla', you can get a leader through war, but it sounds like in 'Conquest', you can receive an SGL through research. Am I reading that correctly? And you can use this SGL to increase research or build a Wonder?

Also, does anybody know if you get the slingshot in 'vanilla' too? I thought I tried it and getting Philosophy first did absolutely nothing so I never bothered going after it again, but maybe I should setup a dummy chieftain game and race to philosophy just to see if I get the free tech?

Also, the ability to explore quickly with Curraghs is not an option in 'vanilla'

Do most of the players here believe that 'Conquest' is a more entertaining game than 'vanilla'?

 

[Bede]

TEmple of Artemis is good if you are going for an early domination or 100K cultural win. It has an expiration date, though.

Pyramids is an excellent wonder as it never expires and fuels your empire forever so ti has application for nearly every vicotiry condition.

On your question, shields yes, food no, and applies to hills too.

 

[TruePurple]

@shumble
Science Great Leader. Which can only be gotten through research of a tech no one else has/first techs. Very rare, they can be used to rush any wonder or increase research by 25% for 20 turns (I think those are the right numbers) but not build armies of course. They don't have SGL's in plain civ?

Military Great Leaders, are what you are thinking of. They can be used to build small wonders or armies only. But I hear armies were really improved from plain civ3, I don't know in what way. I do know they get an extra move(over its slowest unit), a view radius of 2. When resting heal a point for every unit in the army and get an attack for every unit in the army. But unfortunately can never be upgraded.

Conquest improves reg civ alot. But I can't speak too much on this because I only played plain civ3 for a little bit to try it out and went straight to conquest.

Concerning temple of Artemis, I believe its a tourist attraction so if built early enough will be generating gold eventually, which compensates for its expiration.

You don't think I should hold my SGL for a golden age science boost? Yeah, pyramids is a very tempting target. I just wish I knew how close the AI was to finishing one so I could risk the time for a newly placed town to get it (for the per turn culture effect)

 

[Bede]

If yo have cash in hand open some embassies to find out where the Pyramids are building.

SGL's are broken in Conquests as they do not deliver any science boost. All you can do with them is rush Great Wonders (or any other building for that matter).

The expiration risk with the ToA is that the temples generated go poof...and their culture with them. So you have to habd build them to get the culture back if that's your purpose. Your best strategy with ToA is never research the disabling tech (Education), not the optimal strategy when your UU depends on knowing Education. That is why I say the best use for the SGL is the Pyramids. A really big boost for this game.

How about a save and some screens so the advisors can pick nits?

 

[TruePurple]

Their per turn culture goes poof, but not the existing culture already generated right?

 

[Bede]

Correctomundo on the culture accumulation.

 

[TruePurple]

A few notes on that save. My expansion was slowed down in spots by barbs that have popped up in spots I want to settle or showed up near vulnerable cities where I had to switch productions.

Meanwhile my fellow civs have been threatening me for techs, especially the Aztecs. after another wave or so of settling I think Ill prepare for war. You think?

Wimpy Rome (who's always weak in this world seed) beat me by a single turn to the colossus. If I hadn't switched to republic during the build I might have made it, oh well. Having a hard time deciding which wonder to go for. Right now its the light house(figured I could use it to settle land unknown to other civs, though it expires the same time I'm able to get my UU), though I was considering the GL or Artemas. Which do you think?