Judicial Review #1 - Organizing Workers

[ravensfire]

Having been a fairly long-time lurker of this game, I've found my self more and more fascinated by this discussion. Nothing before has produced so much discussion and emotion than this one simple subject.

Being a bit distanced, there are some very, very interested parallels to the US. Specifically, the continual give and take between the state governments and the federal government.

The issue is NOT workers. Really. It's a symptom, but it's not the issue. The issue is the division of power between the President/DP and the province Governor. CT is tasked with looking at the overall performance of the nation, and has specific, long-term goals in mind to accomplish this vision. The Governors have specific ideas for their provinces.

Where it gets interesting it that the DP really only has the power given to them by the Governor (excepting a few emergencies) - after all, who commands the units to be produced?

As Fanatika continues to grow, and the provinces increase in number, this problem will grow, and grow rapidly. You've just started to see the beginning of this issue.

So how to resolve it? First, a decision must be made - strong DP powers, or strong Governor powers. You cannot have an even split - it just won't happen. Second - a lot of people are caught up in this, way to caught up. Relax (deep breath), and drop it. Period. The past has happened, and a problem identified. Good - now fix it.

Here's a solution - Cooperation. My personal preference is for strong provincial rights. Why - the Govenor of a province should absolutely be concerned with improving their land. The President, at least at the beginning of each term, should determine the national goals, and what each province needs to do to contribute. The Governors need to take this information into consideration and make plans accordingly.

In this case, (enter hypothetical mode - please do NOT point fingers and say "That's what should have been done!"), CT determines that a national railroad is needed, and gets the layout. The Governors are then appraised of this goal, and informed that this is of high national importance, and to please make it a priority. The Governors then alter their own plans, and accomplish the goal.

Within each province, excepting emergencies, Governors control workers and militia. Militia being defined as those units intended for defense. All units assigned to the Army are controlled by the DP. For the most part, this division is obvious.

Once a province is done with a worker (for whatever reason), they may transfer this to another province. If this is done - they lose all control over that worker.

As workers are captured (er, freed), the DP retains control of them while in enemy territory. This allows for the creation of roads/rails/fortresses in enemy territory as needed. If the DP does not need them, they should be transferred to a province in need, as determined by the DP. The Governors should indicate if they need workers or not, as a group. Might I point out that the Senate would be an excellent body to determine this, being comprised of all Governors? They could determine the allocation strategy, relieving the DP of this task.

Everyone, this ongoing discussion has the look of two trains heading towards each other. Everyone knows it's going to be bac, but nobody can stop looking. Please, step back a bit from this.

Thanks,
Ravensfire

 

[Veera Anlai]

If that happens, we're going to have large issues with worker hording. That, and Governors will start adding lots of workers to their queues to the detriment of military and cultural improvements.
I believe we're stressing the issue of having the governors all have total power over their lands that we're losing sight of national priorities. Rather than having numerous labor forces for each province, I think a national work force would provide better, more balanced results. I still don't buy the idea that a province best serves Fanatika by serving itself: if a governor treats their province like it is it's own separate country (Like we've been wont to do lately) then Fanatika as a whole will suffer. Long live Communism, death to Monarchy!

 

[ravensfire]

Veera, you've raised what is the main problem with my idea - the truly selfish governor.

My answer to that problem is twofold. First - Presidential leadership. What I've seen very little of is direct communication from the President identifying clear goals as a nation, and how specific provinces could assist them. This would be a great role for the President. To say "Here are my goals. Here is how you, Governor, can help us reach those goals."

Governor's do often operate in a vacuum, with their goals in mind, without a clear, national objective. I've seen some citizens propose their own goals, and how provinces could accomplish them. The very best example of this is the Size 12 City plan. Wow - here was a clearly defined goal for the nation, and information to the Govenors on how to accomplish it. Not specific queues, but a more general statement without timeframes. Governors determined the timeframe on their own.

THIS is how (in a perfect world) my concept would function.

The second approach is through the election of Presidents with strong visions, leadership and the ability to communicate and work with Governors; and Governors who do work with the President to accomplish goals, without neglecting their own province.

Hey - make the Governors work! Some work harder than others - hold them all up to a high standard!

-- Ravensfire

 

[Cyc]

I am all for communication between the President and the Governors. That is one of the weak points in our game now. Good post ravenfire. The North Province has always spent a lot of production shields in keeping with the National picture. Through the begining of the game, this Province was the Settler factory for our nation. Kuhkaff and Valhalla both keep knocking out Settlers until just recently. Kuhkaff has also produced a large quantity if Military units for Fanatika. It is volunteered to build the Military Academy so that we will have an Army factory for our Panzers. In fact all through the game, I have tried to keep The North Province as a fine example of a Province that keeps its focus on a National goal, as they tend to change as the game progresses. The North Province is a fine producer of tax income, shield production and culture. How anyone can say that it is only concerned with its own needs is beyond me. But now it is stagnating and needs more work to grow again. Key improvements can help with this and I don't expect the DP to be aware of these key improvements. That's where the communication comes in. If one side shuts down, there is no possibility of solving problems. No communication from the President is one of the reasons this Judicial Review is taking place. I hope things change in this regard.

 

[Cyc]

Before the Judiciary makes its ruling, I think we should key on the statement that the Chief Justice mad in the PI #2 thread, where he claims that if a Governor has not specifically forbid the DP from improving a tile in their Province (by posting strict instructions in the Turn Chat Instruction thread), then the DP can push off the Governors priorities for worker actions until later and improve what the deem important. In posting the tiles that need work, the Governors are organizing tile development, one of the key points in this review. By allowing the DP to not only ignore those instructions, but improve other tiles is re-writing CoL D.1.E. The President/DP should not be organizing tile development as per the Constitution, when instructions for a Province are all ready laid out.

We need to look at this closely, as if this is the angle the CJ intends to use in his ruling, although he posted it in another thread, it will conflict with existing law. This is just not right.

 

[Chieftess]

I'm all for communication too. But, I feel I have my hands tied behind my back, since I have to listen to what the citizentry want first.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Great posts, Ravensfire, and thank you for your comments in the last post.

-Author of the Size 12 Plan

Communication is possible, it just needs to happen in the Forums before the turnchat. Listen to the citizenry, CT, but don't be afraid to let them know what your goals are as well.

I think much of our current eruption could have been avoided if you had just dropped by the North Province Office and told Cyc that you had different ideas for his workers. I have dropped by each governor's office several times pre-turnchat to request build queue changes. I give them the reason for the change and leave it up to them, thereby including them in the process. Believe it or not, I have had much success using this method. And judging from everything I've read, I think the governor's appreciate this personal approach more than a 1-0 Spot Council override in the chat.

Well, that's my two cents......time to put my hand out to the governors for factories and workers.........

 

[Cheetah]

DZ and Chieftess: Please, speak up about any of your ideas. The governors are willing to listen, but its sometimes hard to guess what our leaders want.

I'm all for communication too. But, I feel I have my hands tied behind my back, since I have to listen to what the citizentry want first.

Even if you are the President you can still speak up before any citizens have spoken.

Any suggestions I hear about I am willing to look at and discuss. And I have complied to a lot of DZ's request, so it's always worth a shot

 

[Cyc]

I guess no one's told Cheetah what happened in his Province last night .

 

[Donovan Zoi]

What are you referring to Cyc....losing the palace pre-build? That wasn't Cheetah's idea in the first place. That was put in Kyoto with no discussion and a 1-0 Spot Council Vote in chat.

Though I had nothing to do with how the measure passed(read the chat log...the madness ensued mere moments after I left....), I was able to speak out to get the pre-build removed and helped set Governor Cheetah up with the only functional Factory in Fanatika. It is currently pumping out 48 shields/pt, thanks to our Golden Age. So we actually won't lose any time on the pre-build and have a Factory to boot.

For the record, I also requested a Spot Council Vote to change to a Factory in Plexenburg, also within Hafenland's borders. The measure passed 3-1.

 

[Cheetah]

Absoluteley no harm done!

If I had been at the turn chat I would have called for factories in as many cities as possible.

And the palace prebuild was not my idea either, but as it was for ToE and Kyoto has a lot of production, I figured it was a good place to start a prebuild.

So far, no build queue changes in Hafen Land has conflicted with the wishes of the Governor

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I think the idea that has been passed around a lot is the solution: DPs and other leaders post information about their plans in the governor threads. Most governors are happy to reply, and change their plans, either wholeheartedly or, if they see something else as important, partially.

I think this game should be less of a governors asking the leaders to do things, but the leaders asking the governors to do things, and telling them if what they are doing is detrimental to Fanatika. that way, more people are happy, as governors generally respond. The leaders should not control Fanatika with their power, but lead Fanatika with their influence.

They should be at the front of the line of people, pointing out where the governors should go, and turning the governors around when they are going backwards.