Judicial Review #1 - Organizing Workers

[donsig]

Originally posted by Cyc
Quoting donsig:
Any changes to tile improvement that conflict with a governor's orders should be handled via the DP's administrative over-ride which is a vote.
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Thanks for trying to help, donsig, but there is no lawful means for the DP to overide tile development through a council vote. At least not in the Constitution I'm looking at. If I'm wrong, please quote the passage.

It is not in the constitution but over-ride votes are an established part of our governmental procedure. C.1.D of the CoL:

May initiate Administrative, Legislative, Mobilization and Spot Council Votes.

C.3.B.2 of the CoL defines them:

Affirmative result overrules an elected official’s instructions and decisions for game play.

The administrative vote is not restricted to over-riding departmental leaders' instructions but can be used to over-ride governor's orders as well as has been done many times regarding build queues.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

May I just point out that i have given instructions for workers to fix my province, yet not one request has been fulfilled. Fix this. I dont really care how, just do.

 

[Cyc]

Good point, donsig. Thank you.

 

[FortyJ]

I'm enjoying this discussion very much. It seems to be one of the most constructive debates we've had in some time. I hope we can continue this trend until we reach a healthy agreement on this issue.

Oh, and let us stop empowering the DP with the authority to organize worker tasks. The DP has no such authority. CoL.C.1.G charges the President's Office with that responsibility, not necessarily the Designated Player.

Eyrei does bring up a valid point, too. If the President/DP is obligated to implement the tile improvements requested by the various Governors posthaste, then might it not create a problem if there is a shortage of workers to go around? Might CoL.C.1.G have been written to provide the President with the necessary powers to prioritize the tasks between all of the governors to prevent a sort of worker grid-lock when there are too many tasks requested, but not enough workers to go around?

 

[Cyc]

My point exactly, 40J, in PI #2. I specifically laid out a worker priority with pictures and narrative and resoning for the North province. Chieftess already had workers in the Province and was attempting to gather more ther as we were trying to get the technology of Steam Power, and railroads would be started soon. Instead of doing the work I laid out for her, she ignored these requests and developed other tiles in different ways, wasting the time that could have been used to help the Province as deemed by the Governor. It wasn't that there was a shortage of workers, there was an abundance of workers, the problem was the DP ignoring the Governors requests.

 

[FortyJ]

An excellent argument for your case in PI #2, Cyc.

And can we derive from your statement that you have no problems with the President prioritizing worker tasks, provided he or she does not simply ignore the requests of the governors altogether?

 

[Ehecatl Atzin]

Just to throw my .2 cents worth:

A similar discussion is being had in the Fanatikan Senate, (I'm not gonna post a link..you know where it is!)
To calm Octavian's fears of 'governors hoarding workers' the eartaging idea is being throw around in the Senate halls, go have a look.

All right, there's your link..laizy bums! Fanatikan Grand Senate

EA

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by FortyJ
I'm enjoying this discussion very much. It seems to be one of the most constructive debates we've had in some time. I hope we can continue this trend until we reach a healthy agreement on this issue.

Oh, and let us stop empowering the DP with the authority to organize worker tasks. The DP has no such authority. CoL.C.1.G charges the President's Office with that responsibility, not necessarily the Designated Player.

Eyrei does bring up a valid point, too. If the President/DP is obligated to implement the tile improvements requested by the various Governors posthaste, then might it not create a problem if there is a shortage of workers to go around? Might CoL.C.1.G have been written to provide the President with the necessary powers to prioritize the tasks between all of the governors to prevent a sort of worker grid-lock when there are too many tasks requested, but not enough workers to go around?

A constructive debate? It can't be since this is the result of a bunch of ridiculous spammy PIs. How could we be having a constructive debate when this whole thing is soley me disrupting the demogame for the entertainment of myself and a select few?!? And if you're enjoying this debate Mr. FortyJ then you must be one of the select few! You're in trouble now Mister!

I think if you want us to stop empowering the DP with Presidential powers then you'll have to start a whole new judicial review. If the DP does not assume presidential powers then we open ourselves up for way too many problems. Say we actually agree on the dividing line between the governors' and the president's authority over workers. Then bam the President takes a chat off and the VP is the DP. Are we back at square one? Can the DP (if it is not the President) ignore governor's worker orders? Can the poor DP be held accountable to both the governors and the President? For all intents and purposes the DP is (and should be) endowed with all the powers of the President.

Yes, eyrei's point that each governor could ask for all the workers at the same time is valid. And yes, there are times such as in eyrei's example that the President will have to step in and prioritize governors' worker orders. That is why we have the clause about the President organizing worker activity. But in the absence of such conflicting requests, where prioritization is not needed, the DP/President is bound by our rules to carry out the governors' worker orders.

Edited spelling.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by Octavian X
From an official sense, the dispute between the President's power to control workers vs. the Governor's power. The dispute between the two powers given by the CoL would be settled by the Chain of Command (Ref. CoL G.2). The President, being higher on the CoC, would overrule any sort of instruction from a governor.

I would disagree on this point.

I believe that we have established a checks and balances type government, and that the Governors are not at all subserviant to the President.

The CoC was set up for DP designation, not for deciding who is a bigger king (or queen for that matter... sorry CT).

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

It seems to me that Governors can, currently do, and in fact should, prioritize the tiles to be worked in their province.

My memory of how those rules were intended way back when (and this is not to say how it should be, just what the thinking was at the time) was that Governors would post the instructions, and the President (or DP) had the authority to move those workers in an optimal manner to achieve those instructions.

This way no specific "move worker A to point B via road C,D,E" type instructions would have to be posted.

Clearly there can be conflicts, and I agree with the idea that in those cases, the DP should be empowered to make a judgement call, and if I were that DP, I would use a vote at chat.

However, if workers are being used in a province anyway, then the Governor's instructions should be followed. The Legislative branch is not necessarily subservient to the Executive.

In the case of national public works projects, perhaps we should add a point to the law that allows the Domestic department to take control of workers in order to further an approved major infrastructure requirement (such as railroads), as in this case, a bigger picture coordination is appropriate.

 

[Shaitan]

Governors determine what development will be done in their individual provinces.

The DP decides what development jobs will be completed taking into consideration actual worker locations, national objectives and undefined necessary development.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Cyc
(I use "his" in this writing in reference to me, I am not a sexist, nor was the Constitution written by redneck good ole boys, it was just an oversight.)

A redneck good ol' boy is a physical impossibility. They are two completely different things. I know this can be very confusing to the average Yankee but there are distinct differences between rednecks, good ol' boys and po' white trash.

 

[Cyc]

Quoting Shaitan:
The DP decides what development jobs will be completed taking into consideration actual worker locations, national objectives and undefined necessary development
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Now you're adding undefined necessary changes to the mix. Where did you pull that from and would you mind defining that for me? Or is this just something you needed to add on at the last moment to help your new approach to the situation?

 

[donsig]

Yes, Shaitan, as a Yankee I will happily defer to your expertise in distinguishing rednecks from good ol' boys and such but when you start throwing around new terms like *undefined necessary development* I must take issue. What you are implying is that governors are not capable of taking responsibility for the care and management of their provincial lands since they are ignoring *undefined necessary developments* that the DP/President sees. If a governor specifies that a certain legal improvement should take place first in his or her province then it should be done first period. If it can't be done because no workers are in the province that is one thing, but what you are suggesting is letting the DP/President manage provincial lands which is clearly contrary to our constitution.

Finally, I'd like to remind everyone how much the demogame mirrors real life. While the PIs go on and we debate the proper allocation of authority over workers, our President has chosen to ignore all this and has appropriated just about every single worker we have for the railroad building project! While I'm certain we all agree that the national railway is important, we are basically in a time of peace and there is no pressing need to throw the rails up overnight. There is no need to stop other provincial improvements completely. This is clearly another example of our president doing what she wants to do despite the will of the people.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by donsig
What you are implying is that governors are not capable of taking responsibility for the care and management of their provincial lands since they are ignoring *undefined necessary developments* that the DP/President sees.

100% incorrect. What I mean is that most governors have not and do not plan the development of their provinces so the DP must pick up the work that they ignore.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I have given specific instructions for workers in my province thread, and posted them in the turn chat instructions. THEY GET IGNORED. So I post a map, so even an idiot could follow my instructions. THEY GET IGNORED. I build two workers to improve my province. I give them specific instructions. only after they are completed, I tell the DP to take control. But the DP ignores my orders. The DP just takes them away. I have no idea where they are.

I want my province to be improved. I decided to build my own workers, because none seem to be sent to MAG province. But the workers I just built got stolen, even when I gave an orded list of instructions. I dont want to build any workers, because they are sent away, but no other workers are even going to be in my province, no matter how much I yell and scream.

I am totally sick of it.

On a side note, my micromanagement instructions are utterly ignored also. I specifically said that a laborer on an unimproved shielded grassland be moved to the forest near bizen. I have yet to see that happen.

 

[Cyc]

You should post this in the PI threads, GBM. That's where information like this belongs. PI #2 deals specifically with this.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Shaitan

100% incorrect. What I mean is that most governors have not and do not plan the development of their provinces so the DP must pick up the work that they ignore.

And I agree that the DP/President should have the authority to pick up the governors slack. But when we do get a governor who does his or her job of provincial developement planning then the DP/President should make every effort to carry out those plans. Plans other than those given by a governor should only be followed under rare circumstances and with properly documented and legal over-rides.

 

[Octavian X]

I truly believe that the president needs to have some sort of power to override governor's requests. There are always times when a certain project take national priority. In the all-to-likely event of a war, getting troops out to the frontlines from our core cities takes priority. I'm sorry, but a national railroad seems much more important than mining land around a city that will never produce more than 2 sheilds.

Now, I've offened someone. Sorry.

 

[FortyJ]

Another question from the bench...

Does CoL.D.1.E (A governor organizes tile development in his province) preclude the President from having any say in when the task is started/completed?

In other words, if a governor dictates in his or her instruction threads that some grassland needs to be irrigated to spur some growth, but there is a more pressing need to complete a road network or rail network in another region of the country, must workers be redirected from their current project to immediately attend to that governors requests?

Furthermore, wouldn't CoL.C.1.G (<The President> organizes worker activities.) provide the President's office the necessary authority to manage the allocation of worker resources on a national scale, providing a more unified approach to infrastructure development?