Judicial Review #1 - Organizing Workers

[Shaitan]

ABsolutely correct, 40J. The governors decide what is to be done, the Pres decides how and when to do it. The Pres also must balance national agendas, development for provinces/areas that were not defined by their governors, work/rail networks and worker resources due to quantity and location of the workers. The Pres is absolutely not required to jump at a governor's development orders.

 

[Shaitan]

Here's a similar situation:

The governor is responsible for the safety and development of the province. He decides that a border city needs an additional defender and a wall to be really secure. He queues up a wall and requests that the Military Leader move another defender in. He has total control of one aspect but not the other.

Similarly, the governor decides that a certain city needs to grow so two citizens will move from working mountains to working grassland and he also posts that he wants those grasslands irrigated. The movement of the citizens is completely his decision. When/if the workers get over there and irrigate is up to the DP.

That said, if the DP moves in workers and mines those grasslands, works on different and unneeded tiles or otherwise blows off the instructions then there are problems.

 

[Cyc]

Which is exactly my case, Shaitan. If you look at PI #2 again, that is exactly what happened. But people aren't seeing that, and that's why I've restated the original intent of the PI in it's thread and included pictures to help others understand it.

In this situation, Chieftess had an abundance of workers idle in my Province and I had posted detailed instructions for work to be done. Chieftess went ahead and ignored those instructions and put in a mine, roaded tundra (for some unknown reason, and the started stockpiling the workers elsewhere in hopes that we would be getting Steam Power. I can see the importance of a National project like rails, but they were not available yet, and with the abundance of workers available in the Province at the time of the request, there was no "National" need to ignore the instructions and build other improvements (especially ones unrelated to the glorious rails, which you are basing your opinion on).

 

[Goonie]

100% incorrect. What I mean is that most governors have not and do not plan the development of their provinces so the DP must pick up the work that they ignore. -Shaitan

Unortunately I am going to have to disagree. In my first post in the T/C instructions( I had just won MAG), I posted worker instructions. To this day, they still have not been completed. I was told by 40J, that the DP did not have to follow my worker instructions, and being the young naive govenor I was, I happily went on doing my job. I have continued to post worker instructions for our new DP, and unfortunately, one out of my two worker instructions were ingnored. The point is Shaitan, that Govenors get pushed around so much, I think half of us dont even fully understand our responsibilities and powers.

 

[Cyc]

Exactly, Goonie. These responsibilities are all listed in the Three Books. They are publicly available and can not be changed without an act of Congress (so to speak). Just because Chieftess doesn't have the time to read the Constitution, doesn't mean that you can't read it and learn what is rightfully yours as a Governor. As Shaitan states at the top of each sub-forum, the Constitution is a neglected item. We, as Governors, should put an end to this.

And you should quit being afraid to post in the PI's. Your comments on CT's actions in your Province help the PI process in regards to the actions taken in my Province.

 

[Cyc]

Quoting Octavian X:
I'm sorry, but a national railroad seems much more important than mining land around a city that will never produce more than 2 sheilds.

Now, I've offened someone. Sorry.


__________________

I'm not sure who you're talking to here, Octavian X, but i have never left any instructions for mining this term (with the exception of the t/c Instructions for tomorrow). And i would never leave those types of instructions for a city that will never produce more than two shields. Are you making your own doughnuts, now Oct?

 

[Shaitan]

It would be nice if discussion could return to the actual thread topic. The PI's against Chieftess are already being discussed in 8 other threads. I think that is enough.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Shaitan
It would be nice if discussion could return to the actual thread topic. The PI's against Chieftess are already being discussed in 8 other threads. I think that is enough.

Though some of us have refused to discuss them even there.

I think the situation that led us to have this judicial review discussion is pertinent to said discussion. Rather than talking about vauge generalities (that belong in the constitution not the CoL) or making up pretend situations we would be much better off discussing things that have actually happened and how the coming judicial review can help us to avoid problems that have occurred in the past.

I have seen nothing in this duscussion to change my view of how the division of authority over workers is intended to work. I think we all agree that governors can request worker actions which are to be carried out by the DP/President with the latter having a certain measure of discretion as to how and when the requested worker actions will take place. It is the nature of this DP/Presidential discretion that this judicial review must nail down. What are the valid circumstances under which the President/DP can legally excersize the decision not to do the requested worker actions?

Unfortunately, I fear we will only be able to come up with guidelines. Work in a province must be balanced not only against national needs but against needed work in other provinces as well. Workers must also be near enough to a requested project in order to be able to work on it. If the DP/President is going to not do requested actions for either of these two reasons then he or she should state that in the turn chat log. It would also be helpful if these were summarized in the turn chat instruction thread. If the DP/President wants to do provincial improvements that conflict with the posted requests of a governor then an official administrative vote should be required to over-ride the governors instructions.

It seems that a key decision of this judicial review will be the determination of whether gubernatorial posts regarding workers are requests or instructions.

 

[eyrei]

I think, of necessity, they have to be requests. Several governors could all issue instructions to use the same workers, otherwise.

 

[Shaitan]

I think they must be instructions. Anybody can make a request. Governors are tasked in our laws to organize provincial development. If their only "weapon" is the same request that any citizen can make then they have effectively had their teeth pulled.

The DP should have an absolute restriction against going counter to a governor's instructions. That is, no mining if irrigation was called for on tile A-1. If the gov specifies that tile B-7 will remain totally fallow, any improvement to that tile is forbidden. If the DP wishes to go counter to the posted instructions, they need a Council Override.

That said, approved national objectives would rank higher than provincial instructions. If a rail network is approved, the DP can work on that rail network no matter what the governor wanted/didn't want in those tiles. Same with a national park. The governor can say they want park tiles developed but the national referendum to have parkland overrules them.

The rest is a gray area and will be effectively impossible to police. There can be no restriction of when the DP does a job. The DP is balancing the entire nation's workforce and must deploy workers to support many different objectives both national and provincial. There are things that governors can do to encourage the DP to complete their "work orders". List out improvent orders and track the date that the individual job was entered. The maps are a great idea. Get a single set of agreed upon symbols for the various improvements.

 

[Octavian X]

On this subject, in the Senate Thread I posted an idea that *may* easily settle the provincial/national dispute. Please look at it.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=778700#post778700

And on a completely different topic: FortyJ, If you've read your judicial log recently, you'd remember this is Judicial Review #8.

 

[FortyJ]

Yes, Octavian, I was aware that there were seven Judicial Reviews preceding this one.

I assigned this review as #1 of this term, but it will actually be filed in the official Review log as #8.

 

[Cyc]

I believe that among some of the other suggestions posted above, such as these Governor tile improvement priorities being called instructions, we should include the rule that no other work, other than on-going National Projects approved by Congress, shall be done in a Province unless the Provincial Governor's Worker Action Instructions are carried out first. This would simplify the process of Worker Actions for the DP. They wouldn't just send a Worker into a Province to do work randomly. They would make a quick check for Governor Instructions, similar to checking for F/A or Trade Instructions when a problem arises, or checking the polls to see what proposal passed. By completing the Governors instructions first, the President/DP wouldn't have to waste time prioritizing work in any given Province. If no Governor Instructions were left, the DP could move the worker on to another Province or look to prioritize work in that Province. Their choice. Also by completing the Governor's instructions first, it would relieve a lot of the pressure of this situation in regards to Article E of the Constitution. The Governor would have control over the care of his/her Province and the DP would have their work load reduced.

 

[FortyJ]

With all due respect, Cyc. I fear that such an addition would require a number of subset rules that would allow for conditional over-rides.

For example, if a governor has posted instructions to mine a ridge of hills, or irrigate from a river to a city (much like the great irrigation project in Southwest province earlier), but during the turn chat, the situation changes (a new resource becomes available and needs to be connected to the trade network, a foreign city flips to our side and needs to be connected, foreign troops loom close by one of our border towns, etc...), the DP would have no flexibility to adjust the worker actions accordingly.

I think the President/DP must be afforded the flexibility to prioritize actions as needed throughout the turn chat.

 

[eyrei]

We may have trouble finding anyone willing to be President next term...

Fanatika is too large for us to expect the DP to never miss anything, particularly worker actions. And if we make more laws (something we simply do not need) regarding worker actions, it is just going to open the doors for constant PIs by governors against the DP. This game is not about PIs...

 

[Cyc]

That's why I say only 3 worker action priorities per t/c instructions should be given bu a Governor. I can't really see an emergency so alarming that major changes had to be made in tile improvement. And I'm not saying that the work can't be delayed by the DP, I'm saying that work must be done first in the Province, before any other work is done in that Province. (repeating myself....) Other than National Projects that have been approved by Congress.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Maybe each province can be assigned a number of workers, and each governor order those workers.

The governors would also write a list of events where he/she would allow some or all of his workers to be sent off on a national project e.g. if a new resource is found.

so lets say I am assigned 5 workers. I would tell the DP to irrigate here, railroad there. Then I might say if:
A new resource is found
An existing resource is lost, and we need to connect another one
A rail or road has been bombed, and needs reconnecting
A railroad network in a nearby province is being built
A nearby province needs emergency fortresses
A city needs an urgent population boost (e.g. if it is under siege, and needs to reach pop 6)
etc.

I may give specific instructions for each event, e.g. for when a nearby rail network is being built, I may say - "send three workers, leaving two to work on the cities with the lowest food surplus. reassign me another 3 workers when finished"

If we lost our source of oil, and the nearest one is over some moutains, through the jungle, I may say - "Send all my workers to reconnect the oil. reassign me another 5 workers when the connection is complete"

we would decide how many workers a province gets by seeing how much work the province needs to reach full productivity.

 

[Octavian X]

As stated before, a system of assignment would be near impossible to enfore.

As for the national emergency priorites, GBM brings up a good point. What if current resources are lost, or new ones discovered? These would be some criteria were national priority certainly overrules provincial.

 

[Shaitan]

@Cyc - The problem with saying "no work until this is done" is that our provinces are bigger than the reach of a worker. The general case will be that a worker should be doing other things on his way to the objective tile, otherwise there are wasted turns. It's better after a full rail grid is in place but it can take 6 to 7 months of real time before the game is at that stage.

 

[Cyc]

I believe the game is ready now, Shaitan. Work may be a little slow in the very Southern Provinces (the newly captured ones), but all the other Provinces have plenty of roads and now even some rails to get them where they're going. There really is no reason not to allow Governor's a Mandatory Priority List. Well, there is one reason, and that's to let Mods and DP's do whatever they want. It's just that rule or reason isn't fair to the rest.