Jumpmasters 1C: We are a backward people! (C3C/Emperor/No Research)

[bed_head7]

I didn't pop the huts because I tend to have bad luck, like getting beat by a single conscript when I am on a mountain. It didn't look like there was anything past the mountain, and since it is toward that north, the only thing up there would be a bit of tundra, but no connection to a landmass with any worth. I've never tried to post a screenshot before, but I have read the explanation. I was actually going to try to post the same shot you did, Sesn, but I noticed the Great War scenario, and forgot all about posting. Currently, I am hoping it will finish configuring the scenario (on another computer).

Forgot to mention that Alphabet was all we had to trade to Arabia, and I figured trading it would be better than nothing.

 

[SJ Frank]

/delurk

Hi guys, I think Trondheim can reach 4-turn settler factory at size 5-7, please check my math

At size 5, working the wheat(0), the irrigated wine(0), the 2 bg's(2*2) and one mined wine(1) (and the town center of course (1)) gives you 12 shield for the two turns, plus 2 more shields for the auto-picked forrest on growth, totaling 14 shields.

Then at size 6, working the before mentioned tiles plus one more mined grassland, gives you 14 shields for the two turns. Add those and the 2 shields that you get on the growth to size 7, you should have exactly 30 shields for a 4-turn factory.

GK-2 was one amazing thread btw

/relurk

 

[SesnOfWthr]

BH - you're right, trading for something is better than nothing.

I also think you are looking at the wrong mtn, I am referring to the one to the west.

SJ - You know, I think you're right. I always forget that size 5-7 can work too, but we would have some happiness issues to deal with.

 

[bed_head7]

Oh, I meant to go to that mountain. I hit the wrong key, leaving me two tiles away, and since looking through fog, I didn't see much, I decided not to go back. Maybe I was wrong, hope I didn't screw anything up.

 

[scoutsout]

Pre-Flight Check: Arabia has 45g, Babylon is broke. Wake the Warrior in Bergen and send him south.

IBT - Nada

Turn 1 (2510) Arabia now has Mysticism, 90g. Won't sell myst. Warriors scout.

IBT - Bergen trains a warrior, starts a worker.

Turn 2 (2470) New warrior heads north to goody hut. Curraugh sails, finds a small island.

IBT - Trondheim Settler>Curraugh

Turn 3 (2430) Move setter SW, move warrior back to bergen (MP, and I want to pop a settler from the hut) Scouting warrior confirms - no land bridge.

IBT - nothing

Turn 4 (2390) - warrior spots barb camp on other side of straits, near spices.

IBT - nothing

Turn 5 (2350) - units move.

IBT - Bergen Worker>Archer

Turn 6 (2310) - worker moves to irrigate cows at Bergen, warrior moves north to pop hut. Settler in position to found a town next turn. South warrior pops hut, gets maps of our region. Oh joy. Curraugh sails northerly around arabia's landmass.

IBT - nada

Turn 7 (2270) Copenhagen founded SW of Capitol. MM citizen to forest, start a barracks (this looks like a good unit factory). Warrior pops barbs out of north hut. Wake the warrior in Trondheim and send him west.

IBT - Barb warrior flawlessly kills our north scouting warrior (on a hill!)

Turn 8 (2230) Move scouting warriors northward.

IBT - nothing... the barbs are fortified.

Turn 9 (2190) our curraugh spots a yellow border. It looks like someone shares a landmass with Arabia.

IBT - nada... (we need archers to take these barbs out of these hills).

Turn 10 (2150) We have met the Netherlands. Now Abu (who wouldn't trade Myst for anything a turn ago) will sell it to us for 250g. William will also sell it to us for 250g. These are opening offers. Abu will actually take 228. Willaim will take 220.

I will leave this up to the team to discuss, and perhaps let the next player execute the deal.

Screenies to follow.

 

[scoutsout]

Some screenies. (I love screenies)

First, our world.



Next, some suggestions for future Curraugh expeditions:



Third, Trondheim:



I went against the advice of the team here, and roaded that grassland tile. I think there is a chance that we could make a 4-turn settler factory here, but I think we'll need to come back and mine that tile to pull it off - which is why I went ahead and roaded it. I stuck some notes on the screencap...

Basically, we need 3 things:
1) A granary
2) +5 food per turn (Irrigated Wheat and Irrigated Wines will provide)
3) 30 shields in 4 turns. This is tricky, and funny stuff happens on the 4th turn... but I think with the right improvements we can pull it off.

After action review:

The good: Got another city founded, met another civ. There is a possible trade on the table that the next player could execute in pre-flight.

The bad: we have a small barb problem.

The ugly: Nothing ugly - yet. Which has me concerned at the moment.

Some other notes:

Try to build another archer in Bergen before playing whack-a-barb. Barbs get a healthy combat bonus at Emperor level, and need a bit more respect than some of you may be accustomed to giving them.

When Copenhagen grows, micromanage it to keep its citizens off the mined BG next to Trondheim. Once it completes its barracks, build nothing but ground combat units here for a while. This is one of few non-coastal cities we will have, and Bergen needs to be put to use making workers and maybe a settler or two. Copenhagen looks like a good unit factory.

For the next better player,> > The Save < <

 

[scoutsout]

Sorry for the triple-post - I'm debating on whether we need another Curraugh, or if it ought to be switched to granary now. If we don't build the curraugh, it will be a while before we get another... and contact is important in this variant....

Next player: Don't be afraid to use the luxury slider a little as Trondheim grows... when it hits size 4, it will need a little help.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Scout, if you look in post 82 you'll see that a lurker was kind enough to point out that we can get a four turn factory.

The trade - Well, we either take it now, or wait and hope we find someone to pull a two fer with. Personally, I say wait, as it's not a very useful tech to prioritize.

 

[scoutsout]

@Sesn: It's not a tech I'm excited about paying 220g for either...one of the reasons I held off. The AI seem to like it, since it's a wonder tech.

What do you think about Trondheim? Curraugh for contacts or Granary for settler? Bit of a dilemma, huh? (A curraugh is 15s, btw...half that granary...)

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Only because we're isolated on our landmass, I say we can afford another curragh.

did you see post 82? We would have to have 2 mp's and a temple, I think, but it can be done.

EDIT: BTW, I just finished off our SGOTM. A very unsatisfying result, to say the least. We had tickled the dom limit for about 40 turns, and finally were able to call the vote. Of the four civs (including us), we got one vote, ours, and two abstentions. We knew then that the variant was out of reach, so I went crazy nuking and killing to trip the limit. I'll go see how you guys fared now...

 

[scoutsout]

Only because we're isolated on our landmass, I say we can afford another curragh.

I'm leaning that way too. We need contacts.

did you see post 82? We would have to have 2 mp's and a temple, I think, but it can be done.

I did see it, but haven't had the time to really dig through it. Concur on the second MP (which we could get from elsewhere), disagree on the temple. We can afford some lux tax here. We pay full price for all cultural improvements. With the AI production discount at emperor, it's way too early to plow 60 shields into a temple.

EDIT: BTW, I just finished off our SGOTM. A very unsatisfying result, to say the least. We had tickled the dom limit for about 40 turns, and finally were able to call the vote. Of the four civs (including us), we got one vote, ours, and two abstentions. We knew then that the variant was out of reach, so I went crazy nuking and killing to trip the limit. I'll go see how you guys fared now...

I caught that. Check out my note in the spoiler. It should brighten your day a little.

For those that aren't tracking, I'm about to join the "Benevolent and Protective Order of the Wooden Spoon".

 

[scoutsout]

The 4-turn settler factory is not going to work here. We are either going to be short food or shields. If we mine the wine, we've only got 4 surplus fpt. Irrigate the wine, and we can only get 28 shields in 4 turns.

But all is not lost... I have an idea.

Edit:

This may be more than a little tough to get your mind around this one... but I have been dying to try this out. Offa did a 4-turn unit/settler factory trick in GOTM30. I don't know if we've got what we need here to pull this off or not, but have a look at this.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Nope, I think it will work.

Size 5

Turn 1: Work 2 BG (4f, 4s), 1 irrigated wine (3f), 1 mined grass (2f, 1s), irrigated wheat (4f), city square (2f, 1s). Total = 15f, 6s Cum Sh: 6

Turn 2: Exact same as above. Cum sh: 12

Growth to size 6, citizen added to forest, +2s Cum sh: 14

Size 6

Turn 3 : 2 BG, 1 wine, 2 grass, wheat, city. Total = 17f, 7s Cum sh: 21

Turn 4: Exact same as above. Cum sh: 28

Growth to size 7, citizen added to forest, +2s Cum sh: 30 Settler is completed, shrink to size 5, start over.

This is more tricky than a normal factory because there is no room for error. If the city is allowed to actually grow to size 7, the granary is emptied, and the cycle is screwed.

BTW: the reason Offa's trick is not common is because you need to be able to make 6f, and 10 shields, at will. Not easy to do. Certainly need some really friendly terrain for it, and i don't see how we have that.

 

[scoutsout]

BTW: the reason Offa's trick is not common is because you need to be able to make 6f, and 10 shields, at will. Not easy to do. Certainly need some really friendly terrain for it, and i don't see how we have that.

@Sesn: Looking at your math, I think you're right... assuming you're talking about taking that citizen off the forest when he/she is added. Working a forest takes us off the +5fpt we need. Consider this:

Irrigated wheat=+4fpt, Irrigated wine +1fpt each, or +6fpt.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Somehow, I knew you would point out the food could get to +6.

However, to be more specific, for Offa's trick, on step on you need to be able to make 4f and 10s, and step two you need 6f and 8s, with two more added at growth.

As is the problem with our factory at size 4, there just aren't enough shields. I have also been trying to find an appropriate time to try that, but it is a very rare situation indeed.

BTW, yes, I did mean you had to move the citizen off the forest tile at growth.

 

[scoutsout]

Well... let's try the 4-turn settler factory thing as you suggested Sesn. Perhaps we can get it up and running during romeo's turns. We'll just have to watch it closely until the tiles are developed - this may or may not become a settler pump that works on "auto-pilot"; it may need "priming" from time to time.

So... we finish the curraugh in Trondheim, start a Granary, make units in Copenhagen, make a couple of archers in Bergen to play whack-a-barb...and then...

Hmmm ... Bergen... Granary, or Barracks? I think we will be making a mix of workers and units there, and maybe a settler or two. I'd like the team's thoughts on this.

Some other thoughts:

1) Settle the 2 sites north of the Trondheim-Bergen line with settlers out of Bergen. Push Trondheim's settlers south and southwest. They can pick up escorts in Copenhagen along the way....how does this sound?

2) I know archers can upgrade to longbows, can they upgrade to Berserks?

3) Unit mix: My thoughts are a mix of archers and spears... 3:1 ratio. I doubt a warrior-to-sword upgrade gambit is in the offing here.

4) Terrain: Irrigate food bonuses; after that, "Mine green, irrigate brown".

Thoughts? Comments? Gripes and Complaints?

 

[romeothemonk]

Thoughts. Granary in Capitol first. Then settler then curragh. This seems counterintuitive, but the extra units to fill our continent early is an amazing bonus later on. Bergen to barracks, and I would have it build rax, archer, spear, worker in an enless loop at around size 3-4. Do not build archers to upgrad to Zerks. This is really cost ineffective as it costs around 150 gold to do. (If we can get Leo's however, it might be more of a possibility). I like a 1.25 to 1 ratio here on spears to whatever offense we use. Archers are nice if we can use the leos slingshot. Otherwise I would lean towards horses.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

I still lean towards curragh first, but only because we won't be able to make another one otherwise for about 15 or twenty turns. I'm not entirely sold though.

The upgrade cost is high, but otherwise we'll be building a bunch of 70 shield units from scratch. Since we aren't investing $ into anything other than luxuries, we should be able to produce at lease some for upgrade. I would still like some horses as a reactionary force though.

Bergen -> barracks. We shouldn't need many settlers from there if we get Trondheim running right, so a granary is not important, IMO.

I want a spear in every city, with some archers/horses for homeland defense/barb patrol. We don't need a ton of offense yet, as we won't really go on the offensive for a while.

 

[romeothemonk]

With our own continent, there is the option of not building spears. I like to do this every once in a while and just build horses/swords/archers and just attack, attack, attack. Since we really shouldn't see many fast units, (barb horses) this might work nicely and really allow us to barb hunt, and won't have "useless" units during a republic run. I might favor granary, curragh, settler build in the capitol, but am heavily leaning towards granary first. The extra growth is very beneficial.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

You obviously feel strongly, so i can compromise to granary, curragh settler.

Have we decided that we do indeed want republic? The WW may become an issue at some point, and the research benefits will be nonexistant.

Interesting idea on the units. I would still say that we need spears on the fronteir, in case of barbs, but I suppose a heavy offensive mix otherwise would be fine.

BTW - So far I think we have seean a total of about 5 posts from our "silver wings". Where have they gone, and why are they not participating in discussion?