K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword

[f1rpo]

I was considering that as far as workers are concerned, every foreign unit that is not in your territory may be considered a threat. Foreign units that are in your territory due to OBs would be evicted before they could attack. But as I mentioned above, that still would not be a perfect solution because the AI would likely be too cautious then.

Right; sounds like this would allow humans to block the AI from improving its resources without having to declare war. Personally, I've disabled Worker stealing, but early attacks on Workers are still a viable tactic (to cripple the opponent), so an AI improvement would be nice to have. The following might work, but would also be quite a bit of work to implement:

Spoiler :

When a unit on guard (defense or counter AI type), reserve or patrol can reach a threatened Worker in a single turn, that unit moves to protect the Worker; this doesn't really cost the AI anything, so long as (concrete) dangers to cities are given priority. The outer ring is often not reachable in one turn. If the Worker job is not an important one, e.g. not a bonus improvement, pause the job and move to safety. As for bonus resources in the outer ring, change guardBonus so that unimproved bonuses are guarded (pre-emptively). All this only in the early game of course.

Edit (six weeks later): It appears that CvUnitAI::AI_defend can guard Workers, and even when there is no hostile unit nearby. That's a BtS function, and not much changed by BBAI/K-Mod. It's only used by units with the reserve or attack AI type, and not with a high priority.

 

[Leoreth]

That sounds reasonable.

 

[dghstfh]

I just bought BTS on steam I unzipped the file into BTS mods folder, but it does not show up as an option when I try to load it in the game. please help.

 

[DarkLunaPhantom]

In Steam you should switch to old version by right-clicking BTS and going to properties and then to betas tab and select original release there. This will disable steam multiplayer (and enable old direct ip multiplayer), but (some?) mods don't work well with the new version and work well only with the original release version.

You should also check that you are using the right mods folder, not the one in my documents, but the one where the game is installed.
Also check that you have unzipped it properly, i.e. that you have folder named "K-Mod" in the mods folder which contains folder named Assets etc.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

Hi all. 1.46 has been out for a couple of months, so - is there a 48-civ dll for 1.46 floating around out there yet that anyone cares to share?

I'm playing on Marathon/Monarch with NiRv4n4's enormous Europe Extended East map and with only 18 civs it feels empty. I tried the "Realism Invictus" version of the map but found I don't like RI. I thought I'd give K-Mod a go instead but after rescuing Bactria from Barbarians twice and then watching Spain and Armenia succumb to Barbs on the same turn I'm a bit tired of rescuing the AI. (No, I'm not playing with raging Barbs and I'm not completely blaming the AI; it's a big map and with so much fog of war and Barb cities on it the Barbs tend to run wild. I've had trouble staying afloat too at times, but now I've conquered most of the barb cities near me and as I'm Macedonia (Greece), my Phalanxes have kept my core safe. If there were a few more civs out there'd be fewer barbs and I could also let a few weaker AI civs go to the wall. The alternative is to switch to a version of the map with preplaced cities that let the AI occupy more space.)

 

[DarkLunaPhantom]

Hi all. 1.46 has been out for a couple of months, so - is there a 48-civ dll for 1.46 floating around out there yet that anyone cares to share?

Here you go.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

Bless you, @DarkLunaPhantom. Once I add more civs to it I'll post the map here so others can play it in K-Mod. Looking forward to seeing how the AI manages once it's not drowning in Barbs. (When I went into WB to save them I found Spain facing off against 20 Barbs, some in stacks of up to 6 units. )

 

[Autumn Leaf]

Gonna be a delay with the map. I took the blank Europe map, cleaned it up a bit to remove some issues, confirmed that the cleaned-up map loaded correctly when used as a scenario in the default K-Mod, switched to the 48-civ dll and applied the minimum changes to make a map 48-compatible (i.e. added blank Teams and Players for slots 18-47). Tried to load it as a simple scenario (accepting all defaults) and got this error:

On clicking OK I was instantly defeated and forced to exit the game.

CvWBDesc line 856:

        if (self.name != None):
            self.city.setName(self.name, False)

Hmm. I cross-checked by making exactly the same changes to the accurate_earth_132x64_12civs map, and that scenario (which starts with no cities) loaded without an issue.

After chasing many false alleys (false cities?) I tracked the actual issue down. All the Barb units and cities originally had owner 18 - who of course was blank in this minimal edit. Changed all instances of owner=18 to owner=48 and now the map loads fine with the 48-civ dll. However, I spent my Sunday morning chasing this n00b bug instead of adding extra civs as I'd planned and now my brain is fried, so it may be a couple of days before I get back with the updated map.

Amusing to think what might have happened if I'd not tested but had instead gone ahead and entered all the details for players 18-33 and then started a game. In that case Player 18 wouldn't have been blank and would have started with all those formerly-Barb units and cities. He might've won a Domination victory on turn 1! In fact it's possible that's why I was insta-defeated in my test.

 

[Autumn Leaf]

It's not balanced yet but it's been a few days, so as promised, here is the map with 48 civs (43 playable), suitable for use with K-Mod and the 48-Civ DLL. I used every available player colour. It starts in 336 BC, advances in 2-year increments, and uses a lot of contemporary (and some not-so-contemporary) figures as leaders but it's not really meant to be historical. Since K-Mod doesn't support e.g. additional religions I had to do some substitutions to achieve a usable mix. I took out NiRv4n4's customised city lists for now - I'll put them back in once I've figured out which cities each civ should have. Now I get to play with this baby and see if it fixes the Barbarian hordes issue.

 

[Montezuma12]

With the Europe map (thanks for making it btw), did you find the barb issues solved?

 

[Autumn Leaf]

Yes. It is currently best played as Alexander, but the AI made a much better showing on my next playthrough (which is still going). The map felt a lot more realistic and I had to play strategically to deal with my neighbours, not just expanding almost unchallenged into empty lands.

 

[VDNKh]

Hey karadoc, hope you're doing better than you were back in 2010-2012.

I read through this entire thread over the last week and played a few games. I'm very impressed with how well the AI performs and how focused this mod is. My most wanted feature, which you talked about in this thread before, was making the city manager window remember the sorting after you issue a build order.

I've been thinking of ways to improve on the suiciding siege mechanic and combat in general. What the game misses that is critical to artillery doctrine is counter-battery fire. There could be a promotion to siege units that gives a bonus vs. other siege units and buff their combat strength. This way siege units and mounted would be the first units to defend when attacked by other siege units, and not having siege or mounted units in your stack makes you very vulnerable to siege units. Or make it so that every time you cause collateral damage to the enemy, the defending siege units damage you back or have a chance to block or absorb the collateral damage. I don't think that should be part of k-mod, but I saw this was discussed earlier.

Another combat suggestion is that towns should give a defensive bonus.

I saw automated workers were discussed earlier too and how to prevent them from removing towns, I think the simplest solution is an extra option for automated workers to leave towns and forts alone, like how there's an option for leaving forests. I don't really care about any other improvements.

 

[Zholef]

I read through this entire thread over the last week and played a few games. I'm very impressed ...

... by that. You must be some kind of saint, reading 147 pages of mostly years-old forum posts before writing something yourself.

Another combat suggestion is that towns should give a defensive bonus.

That's an interesting idea. I just might steal it.

 

[VDNKh]

That's an interesting idea. I just might steal it.

Go for it.

I've been having an OOS issues at turn 1. My Friend and I didn't feel like trying to troubleshoot it so I'm not sure why, but I suspect it's because I have different BUG settings while my friend has all the default K-Mod/BUG settings.

Also, I've seen this happen with BUG as well, but the net effect value for buildings doesn't always take into account trade routes. Harbors, Castles, and Customs Houses don't always show the bonus gold value. Sometimes it does...

Also karadoc, are you going to change the save game version back to 302 ever?

Edit: What do people think of changing the resource requirements for later units to require a material and fuel? Battleships, destroyers, subs, carriers, and tanks should require iron as well as fuel. Mod armor should also need iron not aluminum, if anything mech inf. should require iron or aluminum and oil, since IFVs have been made with both. With fighters, they should require both aluminum and oil.

 

[Zholef]

What do people think of changing the resource requirements for later units to require a material and fuel? Battleships, destroyers, subs, carriers, and tanks should require iron as well as fuel. Mod armor should also need iron not aluminum, if anything mech inf. should require iron or aluminum and oil, since IFVs have been made with both. With fighters, they should require both aluminum and oil.

First off, and I've probably said this before (you would know that better than me), karadoc seems to want to keep K-Mod reasonably close to base BtS, which is a very good idea for a mod that wants to be included in or used as a base for other mods. As for iron, it is abundantly available in the ground just about anywhere, and in the modern age it is easy to extract. In earlier periods, that wasn't the case. Rich sources near the surface were needed. The Iron resource in the game must be understood to represent such a source. If so, it makes perfect sense for late-game units not to require an Iron resource even if iron is what they're mostly made of.

 

[Leoreth]

Does K-Mod have performance improvements for the CvGame::updatePlotGroups() call chain? It's the most expensive operation in many situations in my mod and often makes the game freeze for some seconds as new plot groups are created and reorganised. I'd love to have a look here before trying to improve it on my own.

 

[VDNKh]

First off, and I've probably said this before (you would know that better than me), karadoc seems to want to keep K-Mod reasonably close to base BtS, which is a very good idea for a mod that wants to be included in or used as a base for other mods.

Yeah I don't expect karadoc to even consider this. I always thought the resource requirements for later game units were wonky (Some units need oil and some don't, what? going to fuel your Abrams with molten aluminium? nuclear powered destroyers? those would cost a fortune! that's why the Zumwalt ditched the reactor design. Anyway...) maybe some prospecting modders here will read this.

As for iron, it is abundantly available in the ground just about anywhere, and in the modern age it is easy to extract. In earlier periods, that wasn't the case. Rich sources near the surface were needed. The Iron resource in the game must be understood to represent such a source. If so, it makes perfect sense for late-game units not to require an Iron resource even if iron is what they're mostly made of..

Not really. Iron and most mineral mining falls into these areas:

Spoiler :

And acquiring raw materials for building military equipment was an issue for the Axis powers in WWII. You don't just need iron, you also need chromium and other rare earth metals to make hardened steel for stuff like tanks and battleships. I think just requiring iron through all ages is a good and simple compromise. I might just make that small mod myself.

 

[f1rpo]

And acquiring raw materials for building military equipment was an issue for the Axis powers in WWII. You don't just need iron, you also need chromium and other rare earth metals to make hardened steel for stuff like tanks and battleships. I think just requiring iron through all ages is a good and simple compromise. I might just make that small mod myself.

To me, this is captured by the Iron-consuming corporations. But I agree about Modern Armor, Mechanized Infantry and Destroyer (or at least remove the Uranium from Transport).

With fighters, they should require both aluminum and oil.

Do you mean the Fighter unit should require Aluminum? That might be a bit harsh, though possibly justified historically. For Bomber the requirement would seem less problematic.

 

[Zholef]

Not really. Iron and most mineral mining falls into these areas:

Of course it's mined most where it's cheapest, but we're talking about iron for tanks here. The idea that an economy could first industrialize, build forges and factories, and then not be able to find enough of the fourth most common element in the Earth's crust to build weapons is absurd.

And acquiring raw materials for building military equipment was an issue for the Axis powers in WWII.

Perhaps, but with iron in the modern age it's not a question of if you can get your hands on it, but a question of how much. And that's not what the resource tiles are about.

You don't just need iron, you also need chromium and other rare earth metals to make hardened steel for stuff like tanks and battleships.

And that's what aluminum represents. At least I feel such a resource does a better job of representing those minerals than one discovered around the time that writing is invented.

I think just requiring iron through all ages is a good and simple compromise.

Simple perhaps, but also silly, if that same hill that was used in anicient times to make swords still determines the fates of nations thousands of years later. Anyway, I'm not saying you don't have a point, but as long as the way the game works can be rationalized, that's enough. Let the players worry about oil, uranium and aluminum. Requireing an iron resource to build tanks because there's iron in them would not enriching the game experience, but it would make it harder for small civilizations to defend themselves. Whatever. You asked for opinions.

 

[Andera412]

Go for it.

I've been having an OOS issues at turn 1. My Friend and I didn't feel like trying to troubleshoot it so I'm not sure why, but I suspect it's because I have different BUG settings while my friend has all the default K-Mod/BUG settings.

Also, I've seen this happen with BUG as well, but the net effect value for buildings doesn't always take into account trade routes. Harbors, Castles, and Customs Houses don't always show the bonus gold value. Sometimes it does...

Also karadoc, are you going to change the save game version back to 302 ever?

Edit: What do people think of changing the resource requirements for later units to require a material and fuel? Battleships, destroyers, subs, carriers, and tanks should require iron as well as fuel. Mod armor should also need iron not aluminum, if anything mech inf. should require iron or aluminum and oil, since IFVs have been made with both. With fighters, they should require both aluminum and oil.

Do you have any logs of OOS game? On what actoin of you or your friend OOS has appeared? Or on AI turn?
P.S. I'm against of any KMOD xml changes. If you want to play with more various resource system, i recommend to play CCV - it has absolutely different multi-resource system with terrible AI management)