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K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword

Discussion in 'Civ 4 - K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword' started by karadoc, Jan 8, 2011.

  1. karadoc

    karadoc AI programmer

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    Yeah, I know why the settler would have done that. It's reasoning is that if there are enemy forces inside their own land, then the settler is not safe. I probably should relax that condition a little bit; but it seem to me that the real problem is that they didn't try to get rid of your warrior...
     
  2. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Prince

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    Yeah they had about 10-14 archers at their cap, maybe it was a tradeoff between killing my warrior and sending 6-8 archers to come and try and choke me.

    Edit: Although when peace was made, my warrior was trapped in a part of jungle between two of their cities, when war was redeclared, they ignored that unit in the jungle too, but that warrior wasnt any decent threat...

    Edit2: Big bug...I discovered a religion from polytheism, and it never spread from my capital to any of my other cities and its 1450ad and I have alot of nearby cities...so I had to buy a ton of missionaries.

    Edit3: I did a culture bomb with a great artist on my most western island city and the culture border didnt move on the left side, it remained only 2 blocks from the city, while the border moved on the eastern side (closer to my other cities). Is this intended? The city had barely any culture...and no foreign city was competing with its culture border.

    Edit4: HOLY ****. OK so invaded a neighbor, the ottomans, I took 3 cities, the last of which, was counter invaded my the points leader Zulus, randomly (they attacked from the ocean, smart and took the city), but my 30 unit stack quickly retook the city afterwards. I had a couple revolts in that city but I was not concerned. Well the city actually "revolted" and returned to the ottomans poessision and destroyed my 30+ unit stack in the city. I dont even have "allow city flipping" marked!!! What happened?!!! Spy mission?!! Man Im shocked, never seen that.
     
  3. TheOnlyDJCat

    TheOnlyDJCat Warlord

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    Hi Karadoc,

    I tried to play a multiplayer-team game three times. The first with 10b, second with 11, then again 10b.

    In all games we had no OOS but at least one exe-crash every 15 minutes. The crashes are not reproducible after reloading autosaves :(

    Almost all crashes happened after both players pressed "end turn", but before the next turn was shown and only the hosting computer crashed.

    I tried to disable most of the BUG Mod options, but it still crashes regularly. One time it crashed directly when slaving a pop for a worker.

    The only thing I changed is using K-mod instead of BUG4.3 and BetterAI, which I used for over a year without any crash. To play multiplayer I copied the gamecore.dll to the assets folder manually as usual.

    Did you play team multiplayer with this before?
     
  4. karadoc

    karadoc AI programmer

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    I have not played team multiplayer as such - but I have played many multiplayer games with permanent alliances -- and that's basically the same as team multiplayer. I haven't had crash problems like that. :confused:

    One thing that doesn't sound right to me is this: "To play multiplayer I copied the gamecore.dll to the assets folder manually as usual." When I want to play multiplayer K-Mod, I don't copy anything manually. I leave all of the BtS assets unchanged, and load K-Mod as a mod.

    K-Mod requires more than just the dll to run correctly. If what you are doing only uses the dll and not the xml or python, then I that's probably what is making it crash. (The crash itself is probably a divide-by-zero somewhere, where the "zero" is meant to be a non-zero number loaded from the xml. All the missing xml entries are set to zero automatically.)

    Regarding the polytheism not spreading... My guess is that it is because some other religion has a stronger "grip" on your cities. (This "grip" thing is not something the shown in-game.) I don't think it's a bug as such, but it is something I was meaning to look into. The thing is, it can be a bit hard to get the balance right on this. Someone suggested earlier that religions automatically spread too easily - and I haven't changed anything since then.

    Regarding the culture bomb. It should spread culture to the full distance on all side. -- Except... culture doesn't spread any further than 2 steps from the land on your continent. So when you say "culture border didnt move on the left side, it remained only 2 blocks from the city", my only guess is that the left side was on the coast. Is that correct?

    Regarding the revolt. There is no spy mission that will change the owner of a city; and if "no city flipping from culture" is set, then cultural revolts should never change the owner. Bear in mind that the default setting is that cities can flip, but not after conquest. (ie. "no city flipping from culture" is not set, and "city flipping after conquest" is also not set.) In any case, the revolt that flips the city should always be the second cultural revolt. You said that you had a couple revolts in that city before it flipped -- so that sounds fishy to me, unless the revolts were for different reasons. (eg. The espionage mission to cause a revolt does not count as a cultural revolt.)


    --

    So far for the next version I've been fixing up some issues in the tactical AI. I've found a bug in 1.11 which sometimes causes the AI to attack cities when they shouldn't. And I've found a mistake in the defensive collateral code that I added ages ago - so that stuff hasn't been working as intended ever... .. and I've fixed a couple of other tactical things as well. For example, settlers will now compare the strength of their group to the strength of nearby enemies before deciding to flee back to base. :)
     
  5. TheOnlyDJCat

    TheOnlyDJCat Warlord

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    I thought if I play multiplayer with a mod loaded, then civ ignores the dll in the mods/assets directory?! At least when the BBAI project was started, its dll had to be moved to the bts/assets directory.

    But when we both load K-Mod as a mod and both have the same gamecore.dll in bts/assets as well as in K-Mod/assets it should work. Or do we have to move the complete folder structure of K-Mod in the bts/assets directory and don't use it as a mod perhaps?

    Maybe I have some BBAI leftover files in my game directory. I try to reinstall bts and use only K-Mod next time. Hope to report soon ;)
     
  6. karadoc

    karadoc AI programmer

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    As far as I know, you don't need to copy anything to the bts/assets folder, or to custom assets. Just run K-Mod on both (all) computers and it should work fine. If the original bts/assets have been changed in some way, that may or may not cause problems - depending on what has been changed.

    I don't know of any situation where the game would ignore CvGameCoreDLL.dll in the K-Mod folder. (Other than when the mod isn't loaded!) One quick way to work out if the dll is being ignored is to open the Environmental Adviser screen. (Press F2 to bring up the economics screen, and then click the environment tab.) If the dll is absent or ignored, then the environmental adviser simply won't work. ie. it won't display any information. On the other hand, if the information there is present and looks accurate, then the dll must be working. The dll is also required for stuff like Rapid Unit Cycling, and the bug-fix that we were talking about a couple of posts earlier.
     
  7. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Prince

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    I was on an island with one other civilization and christainity was the only religion on that island....no competing religions were there. My civics were hereditary rule I got from the oracle, slavery, and organized religion. I ran those for a long time...but by 1450ad my cap was the only city with christainity and I started producing missionarys.


    Yes it was on the coast, i was trying to use it as a early detection device, so I guess thats working as intended that it remained maxed at 2 squares.


    I dont know what to say, I took the city from the Ottomans, then the Zulus took the city from me, then I retook the city, I NEVER select "city flipping after conquest" and I do not have "no city flipping from culture" selected--

    Perhaps it was the chain of ownership that caused the revolt, which did happen at the 2nd revolt. Since the city was last "conquered" by the zulu, before I retook it, then the city was free to revolt from the massive nearby ottoman culture...which would not violate the no flipping after conquest rule, Im guessing.

    Sounds great, Karadoc! I had to go down to Monarchy because of the increased difficulty (and the ai flies through technology too fast which is unpleasant to me). I like the eras to last long enough to "feel" them

    Any thoughts on increasing the research cost for rifling era technologies and afterwards? Currently the last 5 or 6 games Ive played (on epic game speed), around rifling or so the technology pace reaches a blinding pace, only 4 or 5 turns per tech max- so much that the pre modern area and stuff like airships are rarely seen. For example, rifles are around for maybe 14-20 turns before infantry are seen...and ironclads are around for maybe ~16turns...
     
  8. karadoc

    karadoc AI programmer

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    I see now. This is a result of a change I made a few version ago.
    In your case, the most recent previous own was the Zulu, so only the Zulu would be unable to culture flip it. ... I made that change because I thought it kind of sucked that in some situations you originally couldn't flip a city back from someone who never actually conquered the city from you. -- But yeah, your situation is not the first example that has made me consider reverting that change. The original behaviour wasn't perfect, but maybe it was better anyway... I'm not yet sure.

    As for the tech thing, I probably will slow it down just a little bit more.
     
  9. CaptainMidnight

    CaptainMidnight Warlord

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    @TheOnlyDJCat

    Not sure what exactly the matter is but you should never directly edit the BTS asset files. Here's is my experience of mod multiplaying maybe it might help.

    Its good practice for all players to create a specific folder. I use:

    C:/Civ4mods/K-mod/assets


    Its important for ALL players to have the mod in exactly the same place or else the when you come back to a save game which stores only one pathway to the mod you'll have lots of issues. Some people will install civ4 on different drives but any mods MUST be in exactly the same drive and folder layout. This cause me so much anguish the first time I tried multiplayer mods!


    Then open your civconfig.ini (find it in My Documents Civ4 folder) and find the Specify Mod = 0 option. Change it to:

    Mod = C:/Civ4multiplayermods/K-mod

    All players should do this

    Note: if you can't find the option, load the unmodded BTS to the main screen then exit out. The option should appear in the ini file.

    Start BTS and k-mod (or any specified mod) will load automatically.
     
  10. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Prince

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    Im in a new game, and I got islam with polytheism (2nd religion discovered globally again) very slow to spread compared to buddism (yep i got 3rd religion this time). buddism went through my cities like wild fire, so much so that I switched to buddism. Islam spread to one city just a couple turns ago...like 40-50 turns after I discovered it. Idk if theres anything to that.

    This situation is a bit more unfair than the last situation where i dont know what happened (christainity refused to spread naturally, even without competition).

    Probably nothing: but the last two games Ive played I have been plagued with an excess of great artists...

    Anything we can do to help you out, with either civ or in general, Karadoc?


    Edit: Ai city placement may need work, I am dominating my latest game and as Im taking cities, Ive noticed at least 4 or 5 cities were built on gold, some cities have very little food at all and near the ocean (and they werent even financial), it seems like they get some bonus food or something because these cities have such poor food sources that I dont know how some of them grow past 4 or so.

    Edit2: I was gonna invade the portugese, who were destroying the americans, but as i sent my army over the ocean, the americans refused to be my vassal "because your land is too far away".

    Right when I got there, the americans vassaled to the portugese. As i had declared war on the Portugese to show the Americans my good intentions, I landed with what troops I had on their Iron source.

    6 of my longbows camped their 2nd source of iron (on a hill) for about 45 turns without being attacked, ofc my main army that wasnt there was much larger than theirs and an age ahead, but the longbows were the same era as the Portugese troops. I guess they really didnt care about that 2nd source of iron, or they feared losing troops if my main army decided to show up. Either glitched or brillant depending on how you look at it. I did decide to invade someone else as it turned out...

    Edit 3: Invaded the mongols and they suicided alot of cats at well defend towns I took and 4 cats suicided on a solo infantry outside a city without follow up...
     
  11. En_Dotter

    En_Dotter Prince

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    @CaptainMidnight

    Could u be a bit more specific please. Im not saying you are not now, but i didnt quite get u. I couldnt have played in multi for some time cus i was bussy but me and my mates had some issues after 1.10. So please do the step by step explanation of multiplayer debugging. :D

    Tnx in advance.
     
  12. karadoc

    karadoc AI programmer

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    For the next version, I've made some adjustments to the way religion spreads. It will probably spread a bit faster... I just hope it isn't too much faster.

    That would be the bug I mentioned earlier. It should be better in the next version.

    Well, there probably is stuff you could help with, but I don't really like asking for stuff; and so nothing really comes to mind. One thing that may interest you (and others) is that NikNaks has been working on an installer for K-Mod. I'm not really a great fan of installers in general; but this installer does have one significant advantage that I like: it comes bundled with some addition graphics add-on packs which you can optionally choose to install with the mod. For example, one of the packs is the blue marble thing I uploaded here.

    I think the installer is pretty much complete, but maybe you could contact him to help iron out the kinks, and test to make sure the add-on packs don't break multiplayer support, and stuff like that. (If it works correctly, people should be able to play multiplayer games in which different players use different graphics, without any kind of problems.) Also, it would be nice if the installer could gracefully deal with the kind of issues CaptainMidnight was talking about. (Does the mod really need to be in "exactly the same drive and folder layout"? I didn't know that, and if it's true then it's a real pest.)

    Anyway.. here's a bit of an update on the next version. I would say that's is basically ready to upload - except that I want to test it a bit more first.

    The main change, in terms of programming, is that I've given the AI a way to aim for specific types of great people. ie. Every few turns, the AI will think about what it would do if it had each kind of great person. It evaluates how valuable the great people would be, and then it uses those values to determine the value of each type of great-person-points. -- Prior to this, there was some ad-hoc code which would help the AI get prophets for shrine, and artists for a cultural victory. That old code has now been removed and replaced with this new, more general code.

    If all goes the plan, the new great-person stuff should help the AI to get the corporations it wants. Previously the AI would just rely on blind luck to get the right kind of great person; but now it will actually aim for them.

    The bad side is that if I don't properly balance all the different values for building effects, productivity, science, culture, and so on, then this new system could actually hurt the AI by making them focus hard on some particular kind of great person when it isn't actually a good choice... I've already made a stack of changes to prevent that kind of problem; but there may be more changes required. (For example, I've increased the AI's value for culture in general, and decreased the value multiplier for culture-pressure; and I've done a similar thing with espionage value; I've fixed a few problems with the way corporations head-quarters are valued; ... and so on.) ... so I think it may need a bit more testing.

    @Charles555nc. You've mentioned that the AI sometimes wastes a turn after landing with a naval invasion force. I think I fixed that problem today. Previously, whenever anyone moved a transport with cargo, the cargo would automatically be ungrouped. This is not only somewhat annoying for human players - it is also kind of confusing for the AI. When the AI landed its army, they wouldn't be in groups, and so they basically spent the next turn reorganizing themselves. I've changed it so that units can stay grouped when in transports as long as the transports they are in stay together; and I've told the AI to group all of its invasion force into one group when it lands.

    One more thing.. in response to this:
    I've added the following donation options to the (otherwise out-of-date) readme.txt for v1.12.
    I want to be clear that I'm not asking for money. This is just an option for people who like to show their appreciation with a gift.
     
  13. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Prince

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    Congrats on the pay pal, Im sure some of us will send you a more merry christmas in the coming days,

    For the Ai and the use of great people:

    If I had perfect control of my great people acquistion, I would get only 3 or 4 great artists a game.

    1. One for a golden age
    2. One for corporation as soon as I researched "corporations"
    3. One to be mixed with someone else for a 2nd golden age
    4. One to be used as a "culture bomb" in a particularly difficult invasion

    Anymore than that, and I consider them kind of a waste (great artists as specialists have particularly bad values for a city imo, 3 gold and 8 culture...maybe it should be changed to 5 gold and 10 culture per turn, to make them better choices in general.

    My value for GP are...

    1. The best for me by far is great engineers, most production, good econ as well, a couple of these with multipliers in your cap, are pretty awesome (like bureaucracy), military academys, or building wealth/research.
    2. The 2nd best for me is great priests, 2nd most production, and great econ as well
    3. The 3rd best GP is the great merchant, no production, but it can be great to help certain low food cities grow a bit more, or even your cap, and gain an extra specialist, econ here isnt bad either.
    4. Great scientists are almost the same as great great merchants for me, you will want probably 3 or 4 for academys in your most researching cities like your capital, and not much more.
    5. Great artists are used like I mentitioned above. I consider them almost worthless as great specialists.

    As always, impressed with all the code you are correcting :D, when creating a map I have to be careful to not let the ai get too much land at its disposal. If I were to go with 2 continents for example, its garenteed that the other continent would get dominated by a super ai way before I could research transport boats and raise troops to effect the outcome, so something like 6 continents gives the ai fair land without giving it the land of 3 or 4 ais very early.
     
  14. NikNaks

    NikNaks Deity

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    If you would like to help test the installer, please let me know! I should have it finished this afternoon (apologies for the delay, Karadoc), so I'll upload it for playtesting when I've added a couple of additional fixes. If you'd like to help, just drop me a PM and I'll share the link. It would also be nice to hear about any suggestions or ideas for small packs that could be included.

    As for the drive layout, I think that's an issue with the way savegames are written and read by the EXE, so unless you can see a way to change it in the DLL, we might be out of luck. If you can get it to read from the registry key, that might work, though. We'll look into it.
     
  15. Cruel

    Cruel King

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    Just wanted to say that despite not write here I follow the development of this mod with great interest. :goodjob:
     
  16. OnmyojiOmn

    OnmyojiOmn Prince

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    It would be amazing if you could teach the AI not to wage pointless, unwinnable wars for hundreds of years at a stretch, with no chance of accepting peace. It would be one thing if the AI was smarter about pillaging, but it's tedious and frustrating to spend an hour blocking off a stack of unkillable archers that's trying to pillage improvements I don't really care about in border cities I don't care about. I've quit so many games because of this.
     
  17. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Prince

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    Sounds like OnmyojiOmn has been stealing early workers from the ai :D
     
  18. OnmyojiOmn

    OnmyojiOmn Prince

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    I wouldn't mind it so much if I was starting the wars! For example, Huayna declaring war on me with a 1.5 power ratio in my favor, he sends three archers to a crappy city surrounded by forested hills. I danced with those archers for 100 turns before quitting in disgust.

    That reminds me. It would be nice if the AI was smart about workers on its borders. I actually abstain from stealing workers because the AI is so stupid about it that I consider it an exploit.
     
  19. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Prince

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    I dont understand how archers are making you quit? If they are camping, ignore them, if they are moving, send your own archers to attack them when they move to open ground.

    Ai seems to attack when 1. You are massively ahead of them, this type of war they have snuck a large stack near a weak city, and seems to want to wear you down in this war- so other ais in general can catch up. 2. You are starting to build up a major army, when you start mass producing an army, the ai notices and can often try and stop you before you are fully prepared to destroy everyone. 3. You over expand early without much defense. Its smart for them to attack you before you take up all the good land.

    Basically if you steal an early worker from them, they will get massively behind but be the most bitter enemy ever for the rest of the game. More of a choice for the player than an exploit, the ai often has large groups of archers early on to punish you with.

    Edit: Tip: save up alot of gold and even hateful ais will make peace with you, even if it is only for 10 turns. That will help stop those 100 turn wars you are talking about.
     
  20. karadoc

    karadoc AI programmer

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    I also don't really understand how the archers are making you quit. -- Let me try to get this straight:
    Huayna declares war on you. You have a significantly stronger army. He doesn't send a threatening attack stack, but rather sends just a smallish group and uses them to try to choke a city that you don't care much about anyway. You move units backwards and forwards, presumably to prevent Huayna's units from doing any significant damage. You then quit in disgust.

    I don't really understand the problem here. If you are so much stronger than Huayna, why don't you just kill him? If you don't care about the city he is harassing, why don't you just ignore him?

    It is true that the AI's reasons for declaring war are often very sketchy; but is that really the problem we are talking about? By the sounds of things, Huayna is making the most of a bad situation. He isn't strong enough to take your major cities, but he is strong enough to slow you down a bit -- and for some reason you see that as a reason to quit.

    Am I understanding this correctly? What is it that you think is wrong? Do you think Huayna should just leave you alone and let you win a space race? Do you think he should throw everything he has at you, rather than cautiously trying to choke a small city?
     

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