K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword

Thanks for the explanation karadoc.
Personally i prefer automove style in unmodded bts, in my opinion it make the game feels more fluid, but i think you know what the best for this mod though.
 
I like the panzer buff idea...late game unique units should be pretty decent after waiting all game to use them :D I also like not having my automated move until I want them to.
 
If I had to choose, I prefer the new automation style. It's generally only an issue if I'm automating a unit at the very beginning of the game before I have other units to manage, and if it's that early in the game, I think that I really shouldn't be automating anyway.
 
OOS to report. From a random event. I had the influenza epidemic, and I choose to allow the virus to spread instead of paying to have it stifled. The save is the auto save from the turn before. I should have saved it while it was out of sync but didn't think of it until my friend reconeccted. I am playing as Russia.

I would like to add this is the first one we have ever had with this mod, that's why we love it so much.
 

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Crispy007: By any chance is one of your computers running Windows 7 and the other running Windows XP? If so, are you running it in Windows XP compatibility mode (from the Windows 7 computer's side)?

Lots of OOS with events are caused by that, so I figured I'd go ahead and ask just in case.
 
Ideally, the Windows 7 + Windows XP thing shouldn't be a problem. I agree that OOS is far more common when mixing operating systems like that; but ultimately I'd like to fix all those problems as well! I suspect that the most recent OOS bug I fixed would have affected mixed operating system multiplayer games far more strongly. That particular OOS problem was related to the order in which memory was allocated to new units, and since different OSs would allocate memory in different patterns I think the mixing of OSs would amplify the problem. (I'm referring to this: "Rewrote CvUnit::collateralCombat to remove a rare OOS bug", from v1.27.) -- If those kind of problems all get fixed, then mixing Windows 7 with Windows XP should no longer be a problem.

I've just looked over the python code for the influenza event, and the dll code for how events are triggered in general; but I haven't spotted anything wrong with it yet.

Even though you may have got the OOS message immediately after the event, that doesn't necessary mean the event was related to the OOS problem. The tricky thing about finding OOS bugs is that often the bug is occurs quite some time before the game actually goes out of sync. The source of the problem could have been a combination of separate events happening several turns earlier. It's just really hard to know. I haven't tested your save yet, but I bet it doesn't go out of sync after reloading.

Thanks for reporting it though. I'll keep it in mind, and hopefully I'll spot the source of the problem soon.
 
No both machines are windows 7, not in compatibility for xp that I know of. As soon as my friend reconnected, everything was back to normal and we finished the game. That was the only OOS in about 50+ games, so we were shocked and felt you should know :). I think we need to move back up to Monarch though, that game was a cake walk. Hard to tell sometimes though, with the wrong neighbors the game can be just torturous.
I also noticed the AI loves to steal from the treasury now, rather then pee in my rivers. On the whole I tihnk I much prefer them stealing then dumping bodily waste and giving me cholera.
 
Hey Karadoc I just wanted to give you two thumbs up. I really love Civ, been playing since Civ2, and I have played MP many times but it's often just too slow/tedious to make it work or people leave/flame, so 95% of my games are single player. For Civ3 I spent months making a mod much like this one - I didn't want to drastically change the game, just make adjustments to make the AI play better without having to "cheat", and tweak the game to improve it. I was thinking of doing that with Civ4 but never got around to it. Now, I can usually beat the AI on emperor but when I loaded your mod I went back down to monarch and have played 3 games now, all 3 of which the AI handed whipped my butt. Good job, sir, you have definitely improved the AI. It now plays like...gasp...a human!! No longer does Monty throw 20 jaguars at my longbow defended city...he simply storms around my empire pillaging tiles and looking for that one city defended by a few obsolete units. In fact, the AI plays so differently in your mod that I think I need to use MP tactics to win a game. In my first game with Kmod I remember Ragnar declared on me in the middle ages and I thought "oh well, that usually just means about 4 units and 4 trebs dropped off in a few galleys." No. It was a standard map, middle ages, he landed 28 units in an intercontinental invasion. 28. I couldn't freakin believe it. My empire got trashed but, I gotta say, I loved it ;)
I'm not sure if you want to go down the dark path of balance tweaks, like changing the unit stats. I like the whole less is more approach, I have no interest in those mods with like, 40 new techs, 300 new units, etc, but have you considered making some balance changes to the game to make certain civs more enjoyable to play? An example would be changing the panzer and the cossack, both of those units almost never have any impact in a game. Another thing I thought of doing to make the game more enjoyable was to either a)nerf collateral damage, just make it weaker, or b) boost the collateral dmg reduction of drill promotions, or c) both. What are your thoughts?
 
Thanks for the kind words, Noto2.

I have already peered a little down the dark path of balance tweaks. When I think no one is watching, sometimes even take a few steps... I've done a couple of small things, such as increasing the movement of ironclads by 1, and the range of guided missiles by 1. But I've also done a couple of more significant things; for example, the underlying mechanics of culture are a bit different now, and the effect is basically that culture is more powerful than it is in the unmodded game.

There will probably be more balance changes in the future; but in only in small steps. I don't really want to drastically undermine anyone's favourite strategies or anything like that.

I have recently been thinking of ways to adjust collateral damage, but I haven't yet decided on what (if anything) to change about it. We were discussing it in this thread not long ago. For Panzer's, mentioned recently that I'm thinking of giving them Flanking I as a free starting promotion. That'll probably be in the next version unless people start speaking out against it. -- I don't intend to change Cossacks at this stage.

Awhile back, ManmanAtW made a list of all the balance related changes that I've made so far. It's probably not up-to-date anymore.
 
Yes I noticed the change to culture and may I say thank you. I never understood why I could have cities producing 200 culture per turn next to rival cities producing only 40 per turn and it would be nearly the end of the game before they flipped. Then I read the change log and you explained that it was free culture to blame. So thank you for that change. Culture should work in a more transparent manner and culture flipping should be more viable, as it is in your mod. In the unmodded game culture flipping is nearly impossible. I find it doesn't usually happen until the modern era and the game is over anyway.
I have a question for you. Can you explain what your trade route culture does? You say it adds cultures to the city tiles but not the city itself. So does that mean it produces culture for the surrounding tiles as if it came from the city? And when you say the first ring of tiles is at 1000% does that mean a city producing 3 culture per turn is adding 30 culture per turn to the first ring of tiles around it?
As for the panzer, yes I think flanking would suit it. Another option would be giving it drill or some first strikes. Don't be afraid of making it too powerful, it is the latest UU in the game and if it were to be of the equivalent power of a praet or immortal, it'd have something like 100% vs gunpowder or 36 strength.
 
Wait, it doesn't affect the center tile? How does that affect the Spread Culture espionage mission?

I vote yes for Flanking on the Panzer. Why not. It's still not that great because it still takes forever to have the right techs. If it can do flanking damage, are you going to give it the ability to flank all siege weapons? I think that it would gain the right amount of deadliness if it can flank Machine Guns (they are stationary "siege weapons", after all, and they should be easy to flank).
 
To fully understand how culture works, it's important to first understand that there's a distinction between 'city culture' and 'plot culture'.

City culture is the number shown in the city screen. For each point of culture the city creates, with artists, buildings, or whatever, the city culture increases and you can see the precise increase by looking at the culture bar in the city screen.

Plot culture is a behind-the-scenes number which is used in various game mechanics, but is not directly displayed anywhere. Plot culture is what determines the cultural ownership of any particular plot. The plot culture on the city plot is not the same as the city culture in the city. Whenever city culture is created, some plot culture is also created on the city plot, and on all of the plots near the city. The specific formula of how much plot culture is created is the main thing that K-Mod has changed. In K-Mod, plot culture has a much stronger connection to city culture compared to the unmodded game; and is spread further. (In the unmodded game, the creation of culture in a city only produced relatively little plot culture; but in K-Mod, that's the primary way plot culture is created.)

Culture flipping has essentially nothing to do with city culture, and everything to do with plot culture. To flip the city, you must have significantly more plot culture on the city plot than the owner of the city; but the city culture is not important. In fact, you'll usually have 0 city culture when you flip the city.

Trade route culture is pretty unimportant really. The trade route culture listed in the city screen is applied to the plots around the city in the same way as it would coming from an artist or whatever, except for two things: Firstly, the culture belongs to the civilization of the trade city. Secondly, the culture does not add to the city culture. (Most sources of culture add to the city culture, and to plot culture. But this source only adds to plot culture.)

The point of trade culture is that I wanted the cultural influence of civilizations to spread across the whole world, rather than just spread to their immediate borders. When I first implemented it, it did contribute to city culture; but after trying various formulas and changes to try to get the balance right, I decided it was impossible to get a noticeable affect on city ownership without having a huge effect on cultural victory strategies... so I changed it to be plot-culture only.

The spread culture espionage mission adds to both city culture and to plot culture. It's essentially the same as a mini-culture bomb from a great artist. (Actually, I'm considering changing the espionage mission so that it does not add to city culture - because I think it's a bit weird, and because it could lead to a kind of 'exploit' in multiplayer games where players cooperate to get a cultural victory by doing lots of spread culture missions and then having the city gifted to them... They'd still be paying for the cultural victory, but they'd be paying in espionage rather than in culture. -- So I'm considering changing that, but I don't think it's very important.)


Regarding flaking on panzars. I didn't intend to give them special flanking damage with it. The flanking promotion is a promotion that they've always been allowed to get anyway, and it didn't give them any special flanking damage. The only difference I'm suggesting is that they'd get the promotion for free. I agree that panzars could probably afford to be buffed a lot more than just that without them being too powerful -- but... well... I like to do these things in small steps, for various reasons.
 
Regarding flaking on panzars. I didn't intend to give them special flanking damage with it. The flanking promotion is a promotion that they've always been allowed to get anyway, and it didn't give them any special flanking damage. The only difference I'm suggesting is that they'd get the promotion for free. I agree that panzars could probably afford to be buffed a lot more than just that without them being too powerful -- but... well... I like to do these things in small steps, for various reasons.

Not that I care, either way, really...but just a note in case you care about the historical use of Panzers.

Panzers were incredibly useful in the war for Germany, however, Germany's biggest defeats came in the open field vs Russia where (along with the winter weather) the Russian artillery stopped the German tank advances. So getting a promotion against the a unit that was successful in hampering their quick advance seems a little bit historically inaccurate.

Panzers had the most effect due to their blitzkrieg effect...so maybe they should get extra movement, or perhaps instead (or even better, also) extra strength against machine guns & infantry & tanks?

Just a thought. Not too important, though.
 
I really like the idea of culture from trade. I think that it makes a lot of sense from both a historical and game perspective, yet was something that I never thought of myself. Kudos for that.

On your thoughts on cultural espionage for MP games, if the players are on the same team, they won't be able to conduct espionage missions against one another (if they're not on the same team, they've already shown a willingness to cheat as far as I'm concerned :)).
 
I think that it makes a lot of sense from both a historical and game perspective

It doesnt make sense in historical way. I have been asking experts about that. Trade itself isnt enough to "spread" culture. Its a common mistake.
 
Trade inevitably spreads some culture in real life. Think about post WW2 America trading with Europe and Japan. They drink Coke and Pepsi, and we started listening to the Beatles and playing Japanese video games. Anyway, as far as game mechanics go, I really like this concept and I hope Karadoc will expand on it. In the unmodded game, only border cities have a cultural impact on their neighbours. Even with Karadoc's adjustment to culture, most of the cultural "fighting" takes place on or near the borders. What I like about the cultural trade is the idea that a civilization can influence the entire world with its culture. Right now the numbers are so low that they don't really matter, but I'd like to see this concept expanded upon.
 
You are talking about nowadays and u are approximating past to present. That is also a big mistake. Ill give u an example. If i (roman) import pottery from you (greek) it doesnt mean im adopting your culture. I am just importing your goods. I might change add/remove something from ur model to make my own, but that wont influence my ppl to become more greek. In order to properly spread a culture in that age u needed more than just caravans. U needed scholars, priests, spies and such. Trade on its own is just trade and has nothing to do with culture.
If you have spies (or any other i mentioned) among your merchants u can influence something. But merchants job is to sell not to "assimilate".

EDIT:
I dont see any of us becoming more Chinese when the silk road was in use. Just goods, nothing else.
 
En_Dotter, if it isn't trade, then what is spreading culture in the real world? I live in Australia, and I'd say there is a lot of American culture here. I would assume it was mostly from trade.

I wouldn't say that all trade leads to cultural exchange, but I certainly believe trade plays an important role. If we're buying raw material or tools from another country, that probably doesn't spread culture.. but buying TV shows and highly-branded products probably does spread some culture.
 
Trade Route commerce is an abstract representation of the flow of goods and civilians (and, therefore, money) between your civilization and another. It can certainly be seen as including cultural exchange. It's the same principle that makes it logically possible for Religions to spread along the trade network.

It's true that the amount of trade route cultural spread should probably not be very large early in the game - but then, it isn't that large early in the game, mechanically, anyway. I think it's fine for the time being.

Ideally I'd like to eventually see Culture blending play a more dynamic role in the game's politics. Something more complex than Motherland unhappy faces and negative attitude from border pressure - perhaps if two cultures blend heavily it might make their respective motherlands like each other better, beyond what the simple open borders benefit gives? And perhaps creating a line of "traveling artist" units that could spread its homeland's culture abroad peacefully in an open-borders situation? I dunno, that's something else to think on for future personal modding I guess.

Edit:

@Karadoc, Yeah, Japan is certainly spreading some culture around the world via its real-world "trade routes." For that matter, so is the U.S.
 
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