K-Mod

MarigoldRan

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Has anyone managed to beat Diety against the K-mod AI in a standard game?

The K-mod makes the AI SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better. The game is still the same, except the AI is several times as smart.
 
Well-known over the forums that K-mod makes the AI much better. It is the highest form of AI. Deity K-mod is still unvanquished. Simply because it was made too unfair and random. Yes, random. A long-forgotten guy named Mylene tried it on deity and noticed the utter crap called archer rush, making a human player completely defenseless. How to defend when the AI rushes you before you can even start training archers.
TMIT has played on EMP and realized that the game was much harder on EMP.
Yamps made a game on IMM and made the observation that was a really really hard game. His war against Genghis was long and attritious...if that word ever existed.

In the end, except perhaps a really cooked game on occasion, deity is unwinnable on K-mod. Perhaps some genius like Duckweed or Rusten may win here and there, but I'm sure they'll get disgusted at it. In fact, Rusten was disgusted at the new mechanics applied on culture.

The end.
 
Oh and WAZZZUUUUUUUUUUUUP!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!

*Here enters Noto making a great apology of K-mod as we all know*
 
well if the mod didn't made so many changes to rules it would be awesome mod...

yes the game is much much much tougher then standard game, but ultimately the rule changes killed the mod for me (and I guess couple more people)

I would add to the list of people officially trying the mod one succession game on (I think) emperor difficulty level, where we played Egyptians and thanks to WC rushes owned the map.

seemed to me like there is even more emphasis on early game and snowball then in standard game...

that archer rush was fun to see for sure... but didn't made good advertisement for the mod (imo)
 
Won it once by domquest and never played it again (played it in masochistic phase, Tachy could remember).

Prior to that experienced couple of Archer rushes while I was in ''build a worker'' phase and couldn't do a shi*.

Now, map wasn't cooked but there was a natural choke point on hill I managed to grab and didn't have to defend all cities cause of that (annoying pillaging).

K-mod is all about luck and army, totally without ''beyond the swordness'' and, generally, I don't like it. Culture mechanism is annoying and AIs too aggressive to be fun.

But it is a challenging mod. Some things I liked were: AIs raze bad cities, Serfdom is actually a good civic (+1 commerce to farms if not mistaken but it adds even more power to FIN trait when riverside), AIs with huge SoD always try to make it useful, they declare to the nearest target immediately after finishing some other war. You learn to wage war without tech advantage and to balance stacks. That comes in handy when playing real Civilization.

IIRC, I played with Inca. Wouldn't stand a chance with anything less.

Inca+choke point. Although not cooked, can be considered as such.


PS. noto2 will now start saying beating k-mod is impossible and this thread will become less beautiful place.
 
The K-mod AI actually thinks like you. If it's about to lose a city it starts MASSING units like crazy with mass whips and what not. It fortifies its border cities and leaves it crappy.

Trying it on a GIANT Earth map. Medieval start. Dear god.

The AI attacks with 3 cata, 3-mace, 2- Xbow pushes from multiple angles if it thinks it can get away with it. Like a human. It bribes other AIs to DOW on you in war constantly. It's completely VICIOUS. It back-stabs like a human.

It splits its stacks into multiple locations. If it sees you going cataphracts, it masses landsknechts and war elephants.

It steals your money. Causes your cities to revolt. Does counter-esp missions. Blows up your granaries with spies. And you never know when the DOW will come.

I'm cheating like heck- to counter the AI bonuses- I admit it- but I absolutely love it. In the future I think I'll set it at Monarch and turn off tech trading.
 
Well-known over the forums that K-mod makes the AI much better. It is the highest form of AI. Deity K-mod is still unvanquished. Simply because it was made too unfair and random. Yes, random. A long-forgotten guy named Mylene tried it on deity and noticed the utter crap called archer rush, making a human player completely defenseless. How to defend when the AI rushes you before you can even start training archers.
TMIT has played on EMP and realized that the game was much harder on EMP.
Yamps made a game on IMM and made the observation that was a really really hard game. His war against Genghis was long and attritious...if that word ever existed.

In the end, except perhaps a really cooked game on occasion, deity is unwinnable on K-mod. Perhaps some genius like Duckweed or Rusten may win here and there, but I'm sure they'll get disgusted at it. In fact, Rusten was disgusted at the new mechanics applied on culture.

The end.

Think about it. If you had the bonuses that the AI had, why wouldn't you archer rush?

The AI plays like you.... so set it at Monarch/Emperor and make it a fair game. I think it's great.
 
The problem with K mod for Deity players is that K mod Immortal is still (slightly) easier than vanilla BTS Deity, whilst K mod Deity is nearly unwinnable with standard or even favourable settings. On the other hand, K Mod on Immortal with challenging settings (larger maps, raging barbs, or poor starting land) can be fun. And it does make for a 'fairer' game, less chance of having a runaway AI with vassals elsewhere, or being boxed in from the start with K mod Immortal compared to BTS Deity.

And of course, always war is a whole harder setting with K mod, as the AI likes to walk around pillaging everything if it can't take your cities. Beat that on a small Emperor pangea, very fun challenge.
 
I think biggest problem for me was that k-mod made all AI's in game basically bunch of Monties (or Civ V diplomatic AI's)... aka almost no diplomacy...
 
How to defend when the AI rushes you before you can even start training archers.
TMIT has played on EMP and realized that the game was much harder on EMP.

Significantly harder than normal emp, but I cheese-rushed someone to death so I ran away anyway ;).

yes the game is much much much tougher then standard game, but ultimately the rule changes killed the mod for me (and I guess couple more people)

IMO most rule changes aren't significant. The culture one is. The civics needed the re-work they got (one might actually consider serfdom now, maybe, or at least have marginal incentive to use it).

The game was made so that the AI would play better; enough that it didn't need the gobs of BS bonuses that deity AI gets to be competitive. In other words, closer to (but still not as good as) a human. If I played any of you with deity bonuses, I'd archer rush you too, and even sooner than the kmod AI :D.

PS. noto2 will now start saying beating k-mod is impossible and this thread will become less beautiful place.

IMO it's probably consistently possible on emperor and only rarely "impossible" on immortal. It would indeed be luck based on deity just because it has a high chance of killing you before you can do anything...maybe isolated starts could handle it or inca.

Is there any game posted on forums with K-mod? Could be interesting to read.

I did a let's play with it though I forget which game unfortunately.

I think biggest problem for me was that k-mod made all AI's in game basically bunch of Monties (or Civ V diplomatic AI's)... aka almost no diplomacy...

I have to call this out :p. I was playing it with Peachrocks a few months ago and after rushing 2 AI dead sat there without heavy defenses for 80+ turns without any DoW on me. I think its power thresholds are different from stock BTS, because its needs a better ratio to actually take cities and as a result power as a deterrent is slightly more viable...but i've also seen long peaceful periods depending on what strategy it's pursuing.
 
I did a let's play with it though I forget which game unfortunately.

I recall: Cathy game and you did a chariot rush against Alex who was rushing you with archers.
 
I have to call this out :p. I was playing it with Peachrocks a few months ago and after rushing 2 AI dead sat there without heavy defenses for 80+ turns without any DoW on me. I think its power thresholds are different from stock BTS, because its needs a better ratio to actually take cities and as a result power as a deterrent is slightly more viable...but i've also seen long peaceful periods depending on what strategy it's pursuing.

I hope you realize you mercilessely killed 2 AI's and totally snowballed the game before the AI's stopped considering you as worthy target and at that point the diplomacy aspect of game was irrelevant anyway?

the same thing basically happened in our SG... we WC rushed first AI, didn't kill off, another AI attacked us in the meantime which we turned around, then killed first AI and second AI on war chariots making the rest of game irrelevant...

no diplomacy at all... just sword diplomacy...

I admit it can be fun game if you're into the warmongering aspect of civ, but streamlines a bit too much the experience of it for me and is actually the biggest reason why I stopped playing Civ V...
 
Coincedentally I just started two games on immortal K-mod yesterday. In the first I was able to beat back the dreaded archery rush quite easily, and in the second I eliminated an early invading holkan stack and conquered the Mayan cities shortly thereafter. I must admit though that in the first game I started with hunting so I had fast access to archery, and in the second I had bronze in my capital's BFC. So if the odds are favorable it's certainly doable, whereas other, more disadvantageous situations probably simply aren't possible to handle on immortal or diety.

It's probably better to go back to emperor with this mod, which difficultywise is similar to immortal BTS with one big difference in favor of the mod: it's much more fun to face an AI which relies more on its skill than on bonuses than the other way around.
 
K-Mod is an average human being playing. Why should anyone be able to beat an average human being getting tons of free units and twice the production? I mean geez. Deity is a setting that only exists cause Sid doesn't have the money to make a better AI.
 
I hope you realize you mercilessely killed 2 AI's and totally snowballed the game before the AI's stopped considering you as worthy target and at that point the diplomacy aspect of game was irrelevant anyway?

Fact of the matter is that I was barely stronger, and for 50+ turns was slightly weaker. I'm not sure it's been documented what AI considers for DoW under kmod in the kind of detail DanF gave us for the base game, but it's different in some respects for certain (since AI actually does try to win militarily). Number of cities MIGHT be a factor, but it might not be.

I admit it can be fun game if you're into the warmongering aspect of civ, but streamlines a bit too much the experience of it for me and is actually the biggest reason why I stopped playing Civ V

I argue that this position is wrong. Not because it forces civ into a military game, but because base civ is balanced as a military game. If not for the AI doing nothing while someone grabs a W, other victory conditions would not be viable very often (at least, not without beating down the opposition so much that you can take your pick how you want to win). This is also what typically happens in MP too, unless collateral initiative forces a stalemate that eventually gets broken by tech. There *is* still diplomacy, but it's a lot more realistic when compared against the game's rules.

If you wanted a stronger AI with non-war aspects of the game still emphasized, you'd have to somewhat drastically how the game works outright. Civ IV was designed as a military game 1st, whether or not that was the intention.

And you're completely wrong if you think the AI plays to win, or is military-oriented only in civ V. Quite a lot of those AIs are also of the "do nothing at all" variety, tailor-made to let other civs run away.

Deity is a setting that only exists cause Sid doesn't have the money to make a better AI.

1. Sid wasn't a major force in civ IV's design.
2. Given that jdog & co made a huge improvement on the AI for free, a dedicated team of paid programmers could have done at least as well (if not better - kind of like having 5, 15 or 20 jdogs instead of just 1). It's not that they couldn't afford it, it's that the community doesn't care about it enough for its existence to helpfully impact sales.

No, instead people prefer a shoddy slow-running engine, long turn times, and a broken UI with everything being good as long as the picture looks kind of nice to them. Failaxis learned from civ IV that broken controls and incomprehensibly bad UI flaws aren't a serious issue when they went tons of patches without touching known issues and few so much as said a word about it, and didn't even bother trying to make a good one for V. Enjoy your 8+ inputs to add something to the queue!
 
I think biggest problem for me was that k-mod made all AI's in game basically bunch of Monties (or Civ V diplomatic AI's)... aka almost no diplomacy...

I wouldn't say they're a bunch of Monties, more a bunch of Cathies. I've found that even in K-mod it's still possible to cultivate friendships with AI, but just know that you have to guard your borders, because if you leave them an opening, they are far more likely to turn on you. It depends on the AI you're facing but I find having a decently high power rating will keep them off your backs.

I think the core difference between K-Mod and vanilla is that in K-Mod the AI plays to win. In vanilla BTS I believe that Culture is the only victory condition the AI will actively pursue. Anything else they manage to pull off is usually purely on accident. Not so with K-mod.

Once you realize that the AI will pursue Dom victory and will attack you just for the sake of acquiring land and population, diplomacy starts to make a lot more sense. I actually prefer it - and I'm largely a peace-mongerer! - because it makes the game much more tense. Everything you trade to the AI will likely be used directly against you at some point in the future, so you need to be careful. Also, you need to make sure you always maintain enough of a standing army to ward off invasions. I love Culture Victores with K-mod, because it no longer feels like a cheese as instead you're trying to keep the AI away from you while not having much of an army.
 
I agree with miles. K-mod is like playing multiplayer, but with slightly dumber people, who get bonuses in return. The AI are back-stabbers. But they're not crazy back-stabbers or warmongers like Monty.

You can no longer rely on the "oh he's friendly/pleased with me. He won't horribly back-stab me." It makes the war aspect more realistic. Think of all the horrible things you do to the AI on a regular basis. Now the AI does those things to YOU.

Also, the WAY the AI wages war is different. No longer will you see one giant stack of doom. Instead you'll see several stacks of almost-doom, with lots of seige equipment. Kind of like what humans do.
 
K-Mod deity...theoretically of course it's possible, maybe on something like a cramped map with a HOF-tier start? I'd love to see someone try though :D
 
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