Kazakhstan Embassy

[Krill]

Ah, I think you have to use the F9 screen; the GNP number is updated as you make the changes. We are making 16 culture, and 4 espionage, so minus 20 from our GNP, and that is the amount of beakers we are making...need to use F2 to check how much our outgoings are though. Might want to move this to Die Schlapphüte...

 

[General_W]

Isn't it Shoguns', with the apostrophe after the s? [/grammar nazi]

@Krill - you only add the apostrophe after a word that is already plural. (link)
We only have one Shogun - therefore it is the "Shogun's guarantee." We have multiple Daimyo, but only one Shogun.

 

[Krill]

Cool, I'm not that great at writing. Much more of a numbers and concepts person.

 

[1889]

Door #1: They don't want us as a tech ally; that means they have already met someone; especially true if they tell us they have already got a trade in place for certain techs. This option is basically the opposite of Door #2, they tell us that we are straight up enemies from now until the end of the game, and they want to leave us behind the tech pace by not trading with us.

Door #2: They want a tech trade partner. May or may not have met any one, would like a general ally.

Door #1 has no down side for them so it is the best choice regardless. So really it tells us nothing. As an added bonus for them it also restricts our future options (they don't know we don't have sailing).

Door #2 can be easily refused because they don't yet have alphabet, they probably do have Myst and may already be working on Iron. The other techs are useless without religion so it has plenty of down side.

How about just offer the tech trade and give them a chance to make a counter offer. Letting them declare war without our permission is a much clearer indication of their intent. [EDIT: normally that would be suicide with a work boat but they may be able to use the trick we are working on to determine that we do not have sailing.] Letting them waste time haggling over a tech trade is also a clearer indicator.

 

[Krill]

Door #1 has no down side for them so it is the best choice regardless. So really it tells us nothing. As an added bonus for them it also restricts our future options (they don't know we don't have sailing).

Door #2 can be easily refused because they don't yet have alphabet, they probably do have Myst and may already be working on Iron. The other techs are useless without religion so it has plenty of down side.

How about just offer the tech trade and give them a chance to make a counter offer. Letting them declare war without our permission is a much clearer indication of their intent. Letting them waste time haggling over a tech trade is also a clearer indicator.

Door #1 has a massive downside: 581 downsides.

Door #2...well, they have writing, what other tech are they going to be going for otherthan alphabet?

And...eh, might as well say it. Provolution screwed up and was talking about this MTDG to someone over on poly in an IM chat, as part of a diplochat in the Poly demogame. The other guy copy and pasted the whole chat, including the infomation about this game into his private forum.

Now, I'm the game admin for that game; I have access to all of the private forums. So I know what tech path they are taking...and it's towards alphabet. I also know that they have contact with another team, and I'm 99% certain it's Cavs. From that chat, he said that cavs were going to Oracle fuedalism, and Kaz were going to trade them writing to enable this slingshot so both got longbows.

I've already discussed this with Sullla; he said don't worry about it, that it was Provolutions fault for having a big mouth. So that's how I know they are going for Alphabet. Let it be a lesson to not talk about demogames outside the private forum.


Offering them a different take trade, aka IW for writing/sailing...is further away because they need to get sailing AND alphabet. Anyway, I need to go to the cash point and have a walk. I've been stuck inside ill for the past 3 days...

 

[Whomp]

This is the second time Provolution has had this problem. He posted his team's (disasterous) war plans in the UN thread instead of his team's private forum when he was on TNT during c3c I. Eesh...

Robi D got to pound on him though.

I like the letter Gen W. I'm just wondering if we can simply counter with a note to ask about trading opportunities before offering OB. Use pitboss as the excuse why they can't move their boat through until they answer that question.

 

[1889]

So we already know all we need to know, why make it so easy for them? Just offer them the tech trade and see how they handle it.

 

[General_W]

I like the letter Gen W. I'm just wondering if we can simply counter with a note to ask about trading opportunities before offering OB. Use pitboss as the excuse why they can't move their boat through until they answer that question.

Thanks Whomp! Glad to see you're reading along

I'm not sure I see where you're going with this suggestion?
Making them answer the tech question first before we're willing to talk about the OB just seems cumbersome (and maybe a bit heavy-handed) without a real benefit over handling the two topics jointly. Unless I'm missing something?

@Krill - interesting. As I was reading it I was thinking "this probably shouldn't be posted here"... but if Sulla ok'd it... I guess it's Provo's fault we know all that.
Wow - now I'm even happier about getting the Oracle before them!

 

[Dreylin]

For whatever my opinion is worth I like the message.

 

[Whomp]

Thanks Whomp! Glad to see you're reading along

I'm not sure I see where you're going with this suggestion?
Making them answer the tech question first before we're willing to talk about the OB just seems cumbersome (and maybe a bit heavy-handed) without a real benefit over handling the two topics jointly. Unless I'm missing something?

@Krill - interesting. As I was reading it I was thinking "this probably shouldn't be posted here"... but if Sulla ok'd it... I guess it's Provo's fault we know all that.
Wow - now I'm even happier about getting the Oracle before them!

It does but I guess what I'm asking is in this negotiation I think it's important to remind them that receiving OB gives them some real benefits. Hopefully, they'd reciprocate by doing a trade with us to show good faith on our relations.

 

[General_W]

Hmm… ok, I can see the value in reminding them that the OB is a benefit to them.
But I think it'll be better handled with an extra line in the letter, rather than trying to drag out the negotiations.

I've added a comment about "the lopsided benefit" – does that sufficiently do what you're advocating for?

I trust it doesn't turn off any of the current supporters of the letter.

I therefore propose version 3:

Namaste, Donsig.
The Ninjas salute the Great State of Kazakhstan.

We are most pleased to have met your people and the Mighty Shogun has smiled upon your first letter to us.

We wish to offer you two paths. You may follow either one with the blessing the SAN.

The Way of Twilight:
We agree that you'll declare war – and thus pass through our borders – with the eternal Shogun's personal guarantee of safety for your vessel. Then, as soon as your boat is past our borders, we will return to peace and continue negotiations of friendship.

The Way of Daylight:
We agree to an Open Borders deal AND a trade of knowledge. Along with the lopsided benefit you'll receive from Open Borders, we will also offer you knowledge of Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood, and Iron Working (581 beakers total) in exchange for the secret of Alphabet (448 beakers) as soon as you can discover it for trade.
​

What say you?
We eagerly await your reply.


General_W, Daimyo of State, SANCTA.

An old silent sea…
A letter dispatched abroad,
Diplomacy starts.

Current Opinion Summary:

In Favor: 5 (General_W, Memphus, Krill, Whomp, Dreylin)
Opposed: 1 (1889)
Unclear: 2 (AutoTeller, regoarrarr)
​

If you disagree with where I have your name, please speak up.


So – that's looking like a stronger "will of the team."
I'll wait a while longer for any further comment on the changes to version 3 before I fire it off.

 

[Whomp]

Good stuff.

What do you think about making the assumptive that we know they know someone and whether they'd be interested in a trade triad? Do we want these two as friends? I sense they're going to be mighty tight if they were trying to get LB's together.

Another option is to ask whether they know someone else and see how they respond. I guess I like asking questions...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I am in favor, with a grammatical edit:

Namaste, Donsig.
The Ninjas salute the Great State of Kazakhstan.

We are most pleased to have met your people and the Mighty Shogun has smiled upon your first letter to us.

We wish to offer you two paths. You may follow either one with the blessing of the SAN.

The Way of Twilight:
We agree that you'll declare war – and thus pass through our borders – with the eternal Shogun's personal guarantee of safety for your vessel. Then, as soon as your boat is past our borders, we will return to peace and continue negotiations of friendship.

The Way of Daylight:
We agree to an Open Borders deal AND a trade of knowledge. Along with the lopsided benefit you'll receive from Open Borders, we will also offer you knowledge of Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood, and Iron Working (581 beakers total) in exchange for the secret of Alphabet (448 beakers) as soon as you can discover it for trade.

What say you?
We eagerly await your reply.


General_W, Daimyo of State, SANCTA.

 

[regoarrarr]

Do not doubt the power of Die Schlapphüte!

Through the F6 screen, I have confirmed that Kaz does not have Sailing. More details on that in the Die Schlapphüte thread

 

[civplayah]

I'm in favor!
By the way, I'm always lurking, I just usually don't have anything to say...

 

[Memphus]

@Whomp I totally Agree with both of your points

This being my favorite:

Another option is to ask whether they know someone else and see how they respond.

But I think that should be in letter #2

 

[Krill]

Well, Husch hasn't played the save tonight, so he'll likely play it in the morning; we should probably send the letter no later than 9pm PST, so we should have enough time to let the other players contribute to the letter and/or vote on it.

I think we should ask them in letter two about knowing another team; as it stands we know that they know, but they don't know that we know, so do we want them to know that we know that they know another team (I just had to write that sentence...). I don't know what the outcome would be of asking them, but I don't really see how a trade triad with our two strongest competitors is a good thing for us. A trade triad with our two weakest, MS and Saturn could be decent, as we could proably take them on in a 2v1 later on and it would force Cavs and Kaz into their own little trade circle and they would have to either run an espionage economy to steal techs or tech harder; and if they run an espionage economy then we can outproduce everyone by stopping the tech race and utilising the pyramids as a Police State to go Medieval on their arses, but Cavs and Kaz would be much harder to control if they decided to backstab us and we were all allies. Or is the trade triad stuff a bluff?

 

[General_W]

Thanks for the gammer catch (and vote of confidence) AT.

version 3.1:

Namaste, Donsig.
The Ninjas salute the Great State of Kazakhstan.

We are most pleased to have met your people and the Mighty Shogun has smiled upon your first letter to us.

We wish to offer you two paths. You may follow either one with the blessing of the SAN.

The Way of Twilight:
We agree that you'll declare war – and thus pass through our borders – with the eternal Shogun's personal guarantee of safety for your vessel. Then, as soon as your boat is past our borders, we will return to peace and continue negotiations of friendship.

The Way of Daylight:
We agree to an Open Borders deal AND a trade of knowledge. Along with the lopsided benefit you'll receive from Open Borders, we will also offer you knowledge of Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood, and Iron Working (581 beakers total) in exchange for the secret of Alphabet (448 beakers) as soon as you can discover it for trade.
​

What say you?
We eagerly await your reply.


General_W, Daimyo of State, SANCTA.

An old silent sea…
A letter dispatched abroad,
Diplomacy starts.

EDIT: SENT!


Current Opinion Summary:

In Favor: 7 (General_W, Memphus, Krill, Whomp, Dreylin, AutoTeller, civplayah)
Opposed: 1 (1889)
Unclear: 1 (regoarrarr)
If you disagree with where I have your name, please speak up.
​

So that's looking pretty good!

I agree with Memphus here again – let's bring up the topic of whether or not "we want them to know that we know that they know another team" with letter #2.


I'll send this right before I leave work tonight. (5:30 PST – 1 hour from this post)


Any last minute edits?

 

[Krill]

Not really, but a slight off topic comment: are you writing the Haikus yourself, or stealing them from somewhere?

 

[General_W]

You noticed!

I wrote that one myself, but it's loosely based on one the most famous Haikus ever - "Old Pond" by Basho Matsuo.

I'm hoping I can keep the Haikus going at the end of our major diplomatic notes without descending into outright cheesiness. We'll see!