Keeping forests alive.

[strijder20]

I tend to run a entirely production economy, so I usually have tons of Lumbermills in my empires, ill chop down forests only if there on hills (were I only put mines) or were I need farms.

Lumbermilled forest with a railroad on a hill gives the same yield as a railroaded mine, and as health will probably be an issue in a production economy...

 

[AJ11]

On a semi-related note, I assume Boreal maps are a choppers dream? I guess India would be borderline OP on that one?

Actually, no. A city with a lot of flat tundra forests is the one place where lumbermills might be better than anything else, except in a forest preserve + national park + caste system combo.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Actually, no. A city with a lot of flat tundra forests is the one place where lumbermills might be better than anything else, except in a forest preserve + national park + caste system combo.

What about watermills? Where do you use them?

 

[AJ11]

What about watermills? Where do you use them?

If you have to build in flat tundra land and have to develop it, I would keep all of the rare, precious tundra river tiles for farms rather than watermills...

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

If you have to build in flat tundra land and have to develop it, I would keep all of the rare, precious tundra river tiles for farms rather than watermills...

Okay, but when/where do you build watermills on rivers instead of farms? I actually don't use them much.

 

[AJ11]

Okay, but when/where do you build watermills on rivers instead of farms? I actually don't use them much.

Grassland cities with nary a hill in sight. In the Earth18 scenario, the Amazon region after you level the jungles is a good example. You watermill the place up and build all the infrastructure you want, and then level the watermills for cottages if you are that way inclined.

Remember that watermills have a few restrictions:
1. You need to be on a straight piece of river. At the corner of a bend won't do.
2. You can only have a watermill on one side of the river. If you have one already on the other bank, you can't build one on this bank. Placing multiple watermills on a bendy stretch of river needs a bit of thought about which one to place first due to this rule in order to maximise the number of watermills you can place.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Grassland cities with nary a hill in sight. In the Earth18 scenario, the Amazon region after you level the jungles is a good example. You watermill the place up and build all the infrastructure you want, and then level the watermills for cottages if you are that way inclined.

Remember that watermills have a few restrictions:
1. You need to be on a straight piece of river. At the corner of a bend won't do.
2. You can only have a watermill on one side of the river. If you have one already on the other bank, you can't build one on this bank. Placing multiple watermills on a bendy stretch of river needs a bit of thought about which one to place first due to this rule in order to maximise the number of watermills you can place.

Thanks. That is about how I figured it. Basically, they have a rather specialized application that you don't see in most cities. Another example might be one of those marginal tundra cities where you might use one river tile for food and the other of hammers if you don't have hills.

 

[AJ11]

Thanks. That is about how I figured it. Basically, they have a rather specialized application that you don't see in most cities. Another example might be one of those marginal tundra cities where you might use one river tile for food and the other of hammers if you don't have hills.

Building a city in a flat tundra area with no forests is just asking for trouble... I wouldn't do that if I were you.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Building a city in a flat tundra area with no forests is just asking for trouble... I wouldn't do that if I were you.

Right. I was imagining a tundra area with a river and forests on the river tiles but no hills in the fat cross. In that situation, you might put a farm on some of the river tiles for food and watermill a couple for production. Generally though, I think the watermill has a quite limited application in the game. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

 

[strijder20]

Right. I was imagining a tundra area with a river and forests on the river tiles but no hills in the fat cross. In that situation, you might put a farm on some of the river tiles for food and watermill a couple for production. Generally though, I think the watermill has a quite limited application in the game. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

I would NOT do that, unless you are running state property.
Watermills give 2 production, lumbermills 3 (with railroad). If you chop riverside forests, then replace them with farms, not watermills.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

I would NOT do that, unless you are running state property.
Watermills give 2 production, lumbermills 3 (with railroad). If you chop riverside forests, then replace them with farms, not watermills.

Railroads come awfully late. In fact, for better or worse, all my games are won or lost before I get to building railroads (I play for culture victory). But even for other players, the city would be struggling with production for a long time before you can get to Lumbermills. Right?

 

[strijder20]

Railroads come awfully late. In fact, for better or worse, all my games are won or lost before I get to building railroads (I play for culture victory). But even for other players, the city would be struggling with production for a long time before you can get to Lumbermills. Right?

Uhh....
No.
Watermills give one production before Replaceable parts. Which is exactly the same as a forest.
And after replaceable parts?
Then you have lumbermills. And Railroad isn't that far away from that point.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Uhh....
No.
Watermills give one production before Replaceable parts. Which is exactly the same as a forest.
And after replaceable parts?
Then you have lumbermills. And Railroad isn't that far away from that point.

What I am saying is that you get Watermill with Machinery, which is 6 tech levels before Replaceable Parts. So, assuming we are not going to chop the forest on the river tile, we could have at least increased its production with a Watermill from the time we get Machinery until we finally get to Replaceable Parts to build a Lumbermill. Since Lumbermill and Watermill have differing benefits, we might want to keep the Watermill there permanently. Anyway, this exchange has clarified why I don't bother much with Watermills.

 

[nfw]

Uhh....
No.
Watermills give one production before Replaceable parts. Which is exactly the same as a forest.
And after replaceable parts?
Then you have lumbermills. And Railroad isn't that far away from that point.

I'm pretty sure you get no commerce from riverside forest, you do from watermills.

 

[strijder20]

I'm pretty sure you get no commerce from riverside forest, you do from watermills.

That's true.
But I'm just explaining why building watermills over forests to 'Increase production' is complete rubbish.
Ramesses, you didn't understand my post : Forest, I don't care about the lumbermill, gives ONE hammer. Watermill gives ONE hammer. No production gain. Yes, a slight commerce gain because of the chopped forest, but NO PRODUCTION gain.
Unless you are talking about the chopped hammers, which make it worth to chop all riverside forests and replace them with watermills, unless you have health issues.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

That's true.
But I'm just explaining why building watermills over forests to 'Increase production' is complete rubbish.
Ramesses, you didn't understand my post : Forest, I don't care about the lumbermill, gives ONE hammer. Watermill gives ONE hammer. No production gain. Yes, a slight commerce gain because of the chopped forest, but NO PRODUCTION gain.
Unless you are talking about the chopped hammers, which make it worth to chop all riverside forests and replace them with watermills, unless you have health issues.

You're right. I forgot that Watermill destroys the forest and Lumbermill does not. Now I am even more clear about why I rarely build them (and even forgot that they destroy forests!). They are not as useless as Forts, but....

 

[strijder20]

You're right. I forgot that Watermill destroys the forest and Lumbermill does not. Now I am even more clear about why I rarely build them (and even forgot that they destroy forests!). They are not as useless as Forts, but....

When I played on settler, I used to build forts on every unused tile I had.

 

[Skallagrimson]

I usually chop to the health limit in my capital as soon as I get BW, which is always one of the first techs I research. You need the hammers to get your Settlers and Workers out fast at the higher difficulty levels. Then I am usually looking to build Oracle, Pyramids, etc. and the chops help there, too. Once you get to Math and can build Aquaducts, that allows a little more chopping -- maybe even to help build Hanging Garden. If you have a chopped tile undeveloped next to a forested tile, it can eventually regrow the forest there. If I am close to getting Construction, I hold off chopping, because you'll get more hammers per chop post-Construction. When you start a new city, you will rarely go wrong chopping a couple green tiles, especially on rivers, to get it growing fast. My bottomline: cut a lot of trees, but timing is important, and clear-cutting is not a good idea for most cities.

If you chopped Oracle and 'mids, I can guarantee you have absolutely no trees left by the time you get to Math. Forget it.

 

[Skallagrimson]

What I am saying is that you get Watermill with Machinery, which is 6 tech levels before Replaceable Parts. So, assuming we are not going to chop the forest on the river tile, we could have at least increased its production with a Watermill from the time we get Machinery until we finally get to Replaceable Parts to build a Lumbermill. Since Lumbermill and Watermill have differing benefits, we might want to keep the Watermill there permanently. Anyway, this exchange has clarified why I don't bother much with Watermills.

Farm > watermill. You can either feed specialists or abuse the whip. With a watermill you get one commerce point better than an unimproved tree. Good luck with that.

Then again on riversie if you're fin, you'd need a very good excuse not to cottage it (and low food is a good excuse).

 

[GGracchus]

Farm > watermill. You can either feed specialists or abuse the whip. With a watermill you get one commerce point better than an unimproved tree. Good luck with that.

Then again on riversie if you're fin, you'd need a very good excuse not to cottage it (and low food is a good excuse).

If going SP, then watermills give an extra food, and hammers to boot over a farm until Biology, when a farm gets an extra food. If you don't need to grow, then you can watermill for some production.